A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:And so we come back around full circle. If a Treecat is sitting atop his person when he falls under compulsion and he is about to slit his two-leg's throat, would another Cat who is within reach slit his throat first? What if it is the better part of a bonded pair? Could Samantha slit Nimitz' throat if he is about to slit Honor's? Killing ones mate should be a tall order to expect out of a bonded pair.

Question: Since Nimitz is mind-blind, he should not be able to detect another Cat falling under compulsion, right?

And vice versa.

Since Nimitz is mind-blind, another Cat (let's say Samantha) shouldn't be able to detect when he falls under compulsion.

Nimitz isn't mind-blind though, he's only mind-mute. His transmitter is down, but he can still hear from other cats, and still senses emotions, we saw and got that from the first scene involving Honor, Nimitz and Sam upon returning from Hades, circa Ashes of Victory.

So he can still sense mind-glows, from first-hand experience, if someone else is Compelled nearby. But he'd have trouble warning relaying to other cats without direct LOS, because the mind-voice seems to have a distance of a few kilometers, more distance if it's a particularly strong mind-voice, or Memory Singer.

But that raises the question of whether or not a cat could still use their mind-glow if nanite compelled? So far no Human has spoken in scene while Compelled, but there's lots of evidence that the victim is blocked from saying what they'd want to say. Tim Meares would have screamed on Honor's Flag Bridge, or Rajampet wanted to gibber before he ate his pulser for two examples.

But the mind-voice is totally different, it doesn't seem to be a 'muscle' that needs to flex like a mouth+tongue+vocal cords need to. So a treecat that were Compelled, if Alignment could get around the whole 6-limb and multiple dispersed brains issues, may still be able to scream to other cats telepathically. Which could cause other cats, who may or may not also be infected, to all suddenly jump away from their VIPs in order to put distance between their claws and Humans.


Due to how hard it was to teach Nimitz to use pulsers, then Sam and Firewatch, we can be almost certain that no treecat would be 'Compelled' to use a pulser in an assassination. Takes too much unique muscle work, that the Alignment cannot possibly figure it out in order to force a cat to use them. Which makes Humans pretty safe from any Compelled cat so long as they stay out of arms-reach, which returns to whether or not you can still telepathically call out to other cats to move off shoulders or chairbacks in order to protect everybody else nearby.

Very interesting thoughts Somtaaw.

First off, I always wondered if there is any privacy to be found within a Treecat society. It seems there is not any privacy to be had if another Cat can always "trespass in your mind". I was never certain whether one Cat can prevent his mind from being "accessed" by another Cat. I still think that is unclear since what happened to Nimitz has caused him to be mind-mute; Nimitz can no longer "transmit". Yet, humans do not need to transmit for a Cat to encroach upon their emotions. So what gives?

At any rate, if Nimitz being mind-mute prevents him from transmitting his emotions or blocks his emotions, then how can another Cat sense Nimitz falling under compulsion. This seems to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Although I agree that Nimitz should still sense compulsion.

I agree on the notion that a Cat other than Nimitz might still be able to communicate while under compulsion since their communication requires no muscle movement. Except there could be no "bleeks."

But if the MA clones a Cat (see page 8 of this thread), they might even be taught to use pulsers.

Growing a Cat in a vat. Nothing wrong with that.

cthia wrote:Very interesting thoughts Somtaaw.

First off, I always wondered if there is any privacy to be found within a Treecat society. It seems there is not any privacy to be had if another Cat can always "trespass in your mind". I was never certain whether one Cat can prevent his mind from being "accessed" by another Cat. I still think that is unclear since what happened to Nimitz has caused him to be mind-mute; Nimitz can no longer "transmit". Yet, humans do not need to transmit for a Cat to encroach upon their emotions. So what gives?

At any rate, if Nimitz being mind-mute prevents him from transmitting his emotions or blocks his emotions, then how can another Cat sense Nimitz falling under compulsion. This seems to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Although I agree that Nimitz should still sense compulsion.

I agree on the notion that a Cat other than Nimitz might still be able to communicate while under compulsion since their communication requires no muscle movement. Except there could be no "bleeks."

But if the MA clones a Cat (see page 8 of this thread), they might even be taught to use pulsers.

Growing a Cat in a vat. Nothing wrong with that.

what little I remember from things like A Beautiful Friendship, and the various short stories, cats dont have any privacy; ever. Even when it comes to going to another cats erm 'house', both the visitor and the owner of the home know the other is present, but "custom" was the visitor stopped outside and IIRC scratched near the doorway until told to enter, for politeness. Various things like that, and also like Honor they probably try to 'dampen' what they're sensing while in the nesting area due to the sheer amount of mind-glows; and scouts will go to full sensitivity while they're out patrolling.

As for the transmission/receiving thing, again this is based purely off Alfred's inspection of Nimitz post-Hades return, but cats have multiple brains, and the mind-voice (voice) and mind-glow (emotions) appear to be two different sides of a coin. So Nimitz is mind-mute, but he can still receive mind-voices, and he still has both his emotional transmitter and receivers (if they aren't actually one and the same?), which is possibly/probably how Honor and Nimitz have been sharing 'mind-images'.

Remember they have been sharing mental images at least as far back as FiE (Nimitz stalking a Chipmunk in her Grayson Gardens) and HAE (showing a scene of Sam in the hydroponics garden and asking to go visit), and were still doing it even on the Tepes, after the StateSec buttstroked him. Honor was being psychologically tortured in her solitary cell, but Nimitz and Honor's minds were connected and Honor could feel his physical pain while Nimitz felt hers, but they were still comforting one another despite large physical separation. But they never knew he couldn't talk to other cats until Samantha tried to greet him and when he tried to greet her back she couldn't hear it and he freaked out trying to run away. Thats when they discovered he can still sense her emotions, but not her voice.

Ashes of Victory, Ch3 wrote:Since her own link to Nimitz had changed and deepened, Honor had realized that, in many ways, both arguments were correct. She'd never been able to tap directly into Nimitz's "conversations" with other 'cats, but she had been able to sense the very fringes of a deep, intricate meld of interflowing thoughts and emotions when he "spoke" to another of his kind. Since he and Samantha had become mates, Honor had been able to "hear" and study their interwoven communication far more closely and discovered Nimitz and Samantha truly were so tightly connected that, in many ways, they were almost one individual, so much a part of one another that they often had no need to exchange deliberately formulated thoughts. But from observing them together and also with others of their kind, she'd also come to the conclusion that 'cats in general definitely did exchange the sort of complex, reasoned concepts which could only be described as "communication." Yet what she'd never been certain of until this dreadful moment was that they did it over more than one channel. They truly were both empaths and telepaths. She knew that now, for Samantha could still "hear" and taste Nimitz's emotions . . . but that was all she could hear.
-snip-
"No one's ever known if the 'cats were truly telepaths . . . until now," she told Allison softly. "But they are. And when that SS thug clubbed him, he must have . . . have broken whatever it is that makes them telepaths, because Sam can't hear him, Mother. She can't hear him at all."
-snip-
"I'd certainly say that's what it looks like. I noticed that you said Sam can't hear him, not that he can't hear her. Is that correct?"

So Nimitz can taste and presumably broadcast emotional transmissions with other cats, possibly even mind-images (how he helped teach Samantha to use a pulser so quickly perhaps? It was just said she learned it quickly after he did). But Humans don't have intentional emotional transmissions, so if Nimitz were Nanite Controlled, other cats don't need him to voluntarily transmit, they'd pick it up just like they do from a Human being Controlled.

So long as Nimitz doesn't get whacked on the other side of his body and get another of his distributed mini-brains pummeled, he should be perfectly fine. If he loses another pelvic brain, well it would depend on which but he might become mind-deaf and mind-mute (unable to ever speak to or hear from another cat in any form but bleeks & sign language), or one of the emotional elements (sensing or broadcast if they are distinct parts)

cthia wrote:First off, I always wondered if there is any privacy to be found within a Treecat society. It seems there is not any privacy to be had if another Cat can always "trespass in your mind". I was never certain whether one Cat can prevent his mind from being "accessed" by another Cat. I still think that is unclear since what happened to Nimitz has caused him to be mind-mute; Nimitz can no longer "transmit". Yet, humans do not need to transmit for a Cat to encroach upon their emotions. So what gives?

At any rate, if Nimitz being mind-mute prevents him from transmitting his emotions or blocks his emotions, then how can another Cat sense Nimitz falling under compulsion. This seems to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Although I agree that Nimitz should still sense compulsion.

I think this is a very misleading description.

I'll agree that the treecat society seems to have no need for privacy in the sense we do, and some of that stems from the fact that they hide nothing when sending. Treecats can sense the mind glow of most other living animals around them simply because those animals are alive and are thus generating the glow. This is particularly strong with their own kind and even more so with humans, and this is why other treecats can still sense Nimitz' mind glow. This is the source of the treecats' empathetic sense and it was known for a long time in the SKM and even outside of it. A mind in turmoil will have a very different taste from a mind at peace, and similarly for one that is in fear or confused.

And that confusion, fear, and horror is what other treecats would pick up if one of their own got compelled to do something via nanites. Just like they do on humans.

It's because the mind glow is always present that they choose to share fare more freely and never dissimulate their actual higher-level language. If they wanted to, the treecats could keep their language transmissions to themselves or have invented some type of "whispering" to allow only those very close to hear them. But they don't and they haven't: they choose to live in large clans with little to no privacy at all amongst its members.

I suppose if their societal evolution had gone in another way, they might have had members who excelled in hiding their emotional state while sending thoughts that dissimulate truth or are even outright lies. That is, politicians who can beat the polygraph. But this is a road they have not taken.

I agree on the notion that a Cat other than Nimitz might still be able to communicate while under compulsion since their communication requires no muscle movement. Except there could be no "bleeks."

Here's a scary thought: there's no reason nanites can't control the brain too. It's a far more complex organ, so the nanites' programming would need to be a couple levels of complexity higher too. But it is in theory possible.

They could just turn off the brain or turn off the paths to the transmitters far more easily. However, this leads to a problem that is also the issue with this:

But if the MA clones a Cat (see page 8 of this thread), they might even be taught to use pulsers.

Growing a Cat in a vat. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem isn't the biology of growing a treecat in a vat, if they're cloned or not, or simply raised in a zoo. The problem is culture. This even applies to terrestrial animals who have lived in a zoo, versus those that have grown up in the wild: their behaviours differ.

A treecat raised by the MAlign outside of contact with other treecats wouldn't speak the same language, and would have very different behaviours and attitudes, at a minimum. They'd probably have a very different level of control of their mind voice, or their reaction to mind glows of others. This person, like one for whom the brain was shut down, would stand out like a sore thumb.

Just think "Tarzan."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:First off, I always wondered if there is any privacy to be found within a Treecat society. It seems there is not any privacy to be had if another Cat can always "trespass in your mind". I was never certain whether one Cat can prevent his mind from being "accessed" by another Cat. I still think that is unclear since what happened to Nimitz has caused him to be mind-mute; Nimitz can no longer "transmit". Yet, humans do not need to transmit for a Cat to encroach upon their emotions. So what gives?

At any rate, if Nimitz being mind-mute prevents him from transmitting his emotions or blocks his emotions, then how can another Cat sense Nimitz falling under compulsion. This seems to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Although I agree that Nimitz should still sense compulsion.

I think this is a very misleading description.

I'll agree that the treecat society seems to have no need for privacy in the sense we do, and some of that stems from the fact that they hide nothing when sending. Treecats can sense the mind glow of most other living animals around them simply because those animals are alive and are thus generating the glow. This is particularly strong with their own kind and even more so with humans, and this is why other treecats can still sense Nimitz' mind glow. This is the source of the treecats' empathetic sense and it was known for a long time in the SKM and even outside of it. A mind in turmoil will have a very different taste from a mind at peace, and similarly for one that is in fear or confused.

And that confusion, fear, and horror is what other treecats would pick up if one of their own got compelled to do something via nanites. Just like they do on humans.

It's because the mind glow is always present that they choose to share fare more freely and never dissimulate their actual higher-level language. If they wanted to, the treecats could keep their language transmissions to themselves or have invented some type of "whispering" to allow only those very close to hear them. But they don't and they haven't: they choose to live in large clans with little to no privacy at all amongst its members.

I suppose if their societal evolution had gone in another way, they might have had members who excelled in hiding their emotional state while sending thoughts that dissimulate truth or are even outright lies. That is, politicians who can beat the polygraph. But this is a road they have not taken.

I agree on the notion that a Cat other than Nimitz might still be able to communicate while under compulsion since their communication requires no muscle movement. Except there could be no "bleeks."

Here's a scary thought: there's no reason nanites can't control the brain too. It's a far more complex organ, so the nanites' programming would need to be a couple levels of complexity higher too. But it is in theory possible.

They could just turn off the brain or turn off the paths to the transmitters far more easily. However, this leads to a problem that is also the issue with this:

But if the MA clones a Cat (see page 8 of this thread), they might even be taught to use pulsers.

Growing a Cat in a vat. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem isn't the biology of growing a treecat in a vat, if they're cloned or not, or simply raised in a zoo. The problem is culture. This even applies to terrestrial animals who have lived in a zoo, versus those that have grown up in the wild: their behaviours differ.

A treecat raised by the MAlign outside of contact with other treecats wouldn't speak the same language, and would have very different behaviours and attitudes, at a minimum. They'd probably have a very different level of control of their mind voice, or their reaction to mind glows of others. This person, like one for whom the brain was shut down, would stand out like a sore thumb.

Just think "Tarzan."

This has been broached before, and essentially I agree for the most part. But for our present application of developing a treecat based nanite, neither culture nor language matters because nanite programming is not dependent on either. Only muscle memory matters at the end of the day.

One reason I think the MA would be successful is because of their relentless habits in the lab. They have no limits and once they are successful at cloning a Cat their methods and research would show no bounds for the moral limits of experimentation.

Something just occurred to me. If the MA is successful at cloning a Cat, then those Cats might begin bonding with them. That would enable the MA to learn all of the ins and outs about bonding. That knowledge might enable them to develop a special nanite concoction to break a bond. The special nanites might make a previous tasty mindglow repulsive. Thus, Nimitz could desert Honor.

cthia wrote:Something just occurred to me. If the MA is successful at cloning a Cat, then those Cats might begin bonding with them. That would enable the MA to learn all of the ins and outs about bonding. That knowledge might enable them to develop a special nanite concoction to break a bond. The special nanites might make a previous tasty mindglow repulsive. Thus, Nimitz could desert Honor.

What's more, these cloned Cats might not only begin to bond with the MA, but cloning might produce their own Memory Singers. The MA could/would experiment to the point that the mindglow of these Cats is orders of magnitude greater than Sphinx's Cats. If empathic communication works as a "wave" then these much more powerful mindglows might actually be able to jam the communication of Sphinxian Cats.

MA Cats could also be made into Alphas. The side effect being every bonding is as unprecedented as the bond between Honor and Nimitz. Perhaps even much more acute.

cthia wrote:What's more, these cloned Cats might not only begin to bond with the MA, but cloning might produce their own Memory Singers. The MA could/would experiment to the point that the mindglow of these Cats is orders of magnitude greater than Sphinx's Cats. If empathic communication works as a "wave" then these much more powerful mindglows might actually be able to jam the communication of Sphinxian Cats.

MA Cats could also be made into Alphas. The side effect being every bonding is as unprecedented as the bond between Honor and Nimitz. Perhaps even much more acute.

And then those Alpha Treecats bond with the Alpha Onion Members, but unbeknownst to the latter, the former have actually developed mind control techniques and take over the Alignment.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:What's more, these cloned Cats might not only begin to bond with the MA, but cloning might produce their own Memory Singers. The MA could/would experiment to the point that the mindglow of these Cats is orders of magnitude greater than Sphinx's Cats. If empathic communication works as a "wave" then these much more powerful mindglows might actually be able to jam the communication of Sphinxian Cats.

MA Cats could also be made into Alphas. The side effect being every bonding is as unprecedented as the bond between Honor and Nimitz. Perhaps even much more acute.

And then those Alpha Treecats bond with the Alpha Onion Members, but unbeknownst to the latter, the former have actually developed mind control techniques and take over the Alignment.

Brilliant! The possibilities are endless. Authors are indeed gods.

cthia wrote:Brilliant! The possibilities are endless. Authors are indeed gods.

Yes, but the author of these suppositions is not RFC.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Brilliant! The possibilities are endless. Authors are indeed gods.

Yes, but the author of these suppositions is not RFC.

RFC is the god who planted the seeds responsible for the suppositions. There is nothing wrong with his lil angels pondering the possibilities of the creator. Is there?

The MA already had access to at least one cat which died in captivity, didn't they? They could already have cloned Cats.