Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

We have seen that Mannerheim has at least a Squadron of Heavy Cruisers (that's what killed the Harvest Joy) but how many and what classes in total I don't recall.

They seem to have the need to use that disputed ownership system as their working up/excercise area.

My take is they seem to have BCs but no DN or SD and that all of this is probably SLN type- even fairly advanced versions including Cataphracts. Probably have at least yards that can repair/upgrade and possibly can do full building for those ships they have designs for. That would also probably mean that they have the related industries to build what they need for building the equipment (engines, impellers, tech for sensors and weapons. This was intended to be the naval lead of the RF so it doesn't make much sense that they would want to be dependent on Technodyne since SL/SLN could get them cut off (at least prior to the point the SL disintegrated in the original plan).
That ability to repair/produce both civilian and military ships would cement their position in the RF and provide the build-out of the RF along at least common guidelines and etc to be able to effectively work together. It also would be part of the hooks long since planted for the creation of the RF where Mannerheim is a friendly and strong trading partner able to provide a buffer against what was OFS and other unfriendly intrusions that OFS and FF would be able to use as pretext to become involve in "saving" or "protecting" those systems.

We have seen that Mannerheim has at least a Squadron of Heavy Cruisers (that's what killed the Harvest Joy) but how many and what classes in total I don't recall.

They seem to have the need to use that disputed ownership system as their working up/excercise area.

My take is they seem to have BCs but no DN or SD and that all of this is probably SLN type- even fairly advanced versions including Cataphracts. Probably have at least yards that can repair/upgrade and possibly can do full building for those ships they have designs for. That would also probably mean that they have the related industries to build what they need for building the equipment (engines, impellers, tech for sensors and weapons. This was intended to be the naval lead of the RF so it doesn't make much sense that they would want to be dependent on Technodyne since SL/SLN could get them cut off (at least prior to the point the SL disintegrated in the original plan).
That ability to repair/produce both civilian and military ships would cement their position in the RF and provide the build-out of the RF along at least common guidelines and etc to be able to effectively work together. It also would be part of the hooks long since planted for the creation of the RF where Mannerheim is a friendly and strong trading partner able to provide a buffer against what was OFS and other unfriendly intrusions that OFS and FF would be able to use as pretext to become involve in "saving" or "protecting" those systems.

cthia wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:I'm not at all sure that Technodyne-- which I guess is somewhere in the Verge thought I haven't found it listed on any of the maps-- is anywhere close to the RF. While it would be useful to the Alignment plans for the RF to eventually avail itself of the legitimate construction capacity of that private/no habitable planet system that Technodyne uses for it's main shipyards, how that would come about is not clear.

On the other hand, if the RF should move to bring the Transtellar -which is what Technodyne is- into it's political alliance orbit, that could have a distinct downside. Zilwicki is part of the group who is tracking leads to the Alignment and used- another things- the delivery of weapons to the X PRH SS ships that were used in the attempted genocide at Torch.
Cataphracts.......they show up in the oddest places and, with Torch, before they seem to appear in the SLN arsenal of weapons. So they do come into the SLN but when and what is the development sequencing of the system itself and it's several variants. Newer versions (at Torch) appear to show up before "older" versions with the SLN and eventually that is going to end up leading to questions. Harrington took the entire archives at the Ganymede Naval Station in the process of forcing the surrender of the SLN. While the Alignment is very good at diversion, were they good enough to firmly cover the ultimate source of the Cataphract designs as not having actual been done at Technodyne or the SLN R&D with the transtellar being licensed to produce them in volume for the SLN? The Ghost Hunters can did at SLN R&D.

More data for Zilwicki, Ruth and company.

I have been mulling over your post for some time. Honestly, you may have exposed how totally clueless I might be about Technodyne. I never considered that the entire company could be controlled, or even owned, by the MA.

I thought that Technodyne was simply duped by the MA, the same as the SL, Mesa and Galton. The MA are puppet masters. There is nothing wrong with turning a profit, and Technodyne certainly had that right.

But what can Technodyne be taken to task for by the SL or even the GA? The company may not have knowingly done anything wrong. And anyone associated with the company who might be guilty of anything are either long gone or will simply drop dead.

Theemile wrote:Some Technodyne execs were in the pocket of (if not in bed with) Mesa, as we saw, they were actively part of the plot to wrestle the Talbott Quadrant away from Manticore, and they were part of the supply chain for the Cataphracts, and supplies 28 BCs for the PNiE and the attack on the Lynx wormhole.

Could it be that they had a division on Mesa and they got too involved with Mesa, maybe.

Thanks for the info. I did not know the company was behind trying to take the Talbott quadrant away, and that is the key piece responsible for my disconnect, because I always looked at Technodyne as no more than the HV equivalent of Grumman (who makes the F14 for the Navy), McDonald Douglas, Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Brigade XO wrote:We have seen that Mannerheim has at least a Squadron of Heavy Cruisers (that's what killed the Harvest Joy) but how many and what classes in total I don't recall.

They seem to have the need to use that disputed ownership system as their working up/excercise area.

My take is they seem to have BCs but no DN or SD and that all of this is probably SLN type- even fairly advanced versions including Cataphracts.

I think that was their First Battlecruiser Squadron, meaning they had BCs and probably quite a few of them. Rajampet was also angry at Mannerheim for having "an outsized Navy," which doesn't exactly say much, but implies they had much bigger things. My guess is that they were indeed one of the First Rate navies that possessed at least one squadron of the wall. I would cap them below the Beowulf level and we know the BSDF was composed of 36 SDs. So I think Mannerheim having 12 to 24 SDs or a mix of SDs and DNs is entirely possible, even likely.

Cataphracts, on the other hand, no. We do know that many systems, including SL members, did send observers to the Manticore-Haven wars and they'd have known about MDMs existing. But I got the impression that no one had yet developed them until the Galton facilities came up with the Cataphract and fed them to Technodyne. It also doesn't stand up to the Plan's timeline: neither Mannerheim nor the RF were supposed to start an arms race, nor were they supposed to have been activated militarily this early. So having Mannerheim have advanced research on MDMs that they can't prove with paperwork like the Technodyne's Hastas would be a dead giveaway that they were receiving technology from the MAlign.

And that's the last thing the Plan wanted.

Probably have at least yards that can repair/upgrade and possibly can do full building for those ships they have designs for. That would also probably mean that they have the related industries to build what they need for building the equipment (engines, impellers, tech for sensors and weapons. This was intended to be the naval lead of the RF so it doesn't make much sense that they would want to be dependent on Technodyne since SL/SLN could get them cut off (at least prior to the point the SL disintegrated in the original plan).
That ability to repair/produce both civilian and military ships would cement their position in the RF and provide the build-out of the RF along at least common guidelines and etc to be able to effectively work together. It also would be part of the hooks long since planted for the creation of the RF where Mannerheim is a friendly and strong trading partner able to provide a buffer against what was OFS and other unfriendly intrusions that OFS and FF would be able to use as pretext to become involve in "saving" or "protecting" those systems.

Yep, my guess is that the RF systems would have a seed for all that the MAlign would need. In fact, I'd even expect that none of them alone could amount to much, but "coincidentally" when you combine their strengths, something powerful comes out.

The Plan had called for the fighting to last years, maybe a decade, while civilisation devolved into chaos. It called for the Leonard Detweiler monitors actually hitting systems in that chaos, and we know those weren't yet ready. So my guess is that the RF would have begun its R&D, with little to no technology transfer from Galton, and then the build up. And meanwhile it would somehow protect the systems that joined against the invisible threat (we aren't told if the excuse was a military tactic or a political one - with RFC it could go either way).

The RF was supposed to outlast this while the genetic uplift of the aristocracy actually took place unnoticed, and that's also something that would take years.

Theemile wrote:Currently, the only large Military in the RF is Mannerheim, per David, the rest are limited SDF level (LACs), up to Mesa level (a few BC squadrons.). Visigoth, with their own wormhole, didn't even have the power to force off a reinforced RMN BC squadron which took control of their wormhole.

Well, that doesn't say much... Aside from the Haven Sector powers and the SLN, no one had any forces that could tell a reinforced RMN BatCruRon to beat it. The entire BSDF couldn't have. The only reason the SLN could was that they had more ships than the BatCruRon had missiles.

In the Battle of the Ajay-Prime Wormhole, which is a similar geography, a CruRun (not a BatCruRon) had enough firepower to hold off 120 Solarian Battlecruisers. The only reason they didn't was because they had tactics to pick them off one by one with less danger to themselves.

You can't fight off a force that outranges you by 200%, especially not if you're tied to a spot in space that must be defended. The shallow hyperlimit is just icing on the cake.

Brigade XO wrote:We have seen that Mannerheim has at least a Squadron of Heavy Cruisers (that's what killed the Harvest Joy) but how many and what classes in total I don't recall.

I thought it was BCs - but I went to look and found more in Torch of Freedom than I'd remembered.


Admiral Osiris Trajan of the Mannerheim Self Defense Force (MSDF) was leading their Task Force Four from his "dreadnought flagship" [ToF] (in exercises in the Felix system).

The force at 'The Twins' that ambushed Harvest Joy was under Commodore Ganneau; and he commanded the MSDF's "Sixth Battlecruiser Squadron"; "an entire battlecruiser squadron"; "eight battlecruisers" [ToF]


So we know for sure the MSDF had at least 1 DN. But, except as an ineffective prestige unit, you don't operate a DN alone - about the smallest useful detachment is a a pair of two-ship divisions (aka a half squadron). So Trajan likely had at least 4 DNs in Felix. And it seems very unlikely that, even for a short term exercise, someone would be comfortable sending all their wallers away from their home system. So figure probably at least another half-squadron active back an Mannerheim. And odds are than if they've got 8 active they've got at least another 4 in some phase of replenishment, maintenance, working up, etc. (As 3 ships are generally needed to keep 1 on station, with the ability to surge temporarily up to 2 on station)

Also, as a very thin reed, there were several MSDF Admirals named in ToF - yet a BC squadron was under a mere Commander, rather than an Admiral. That might indicate that they have enough more powerful or prestigious formation commands for their Admirals -- that a BC squadron, which is more than most Verge navies have, is too insignificant to be assigned one..

And a Sixth BC squadron certainly hints at(unless they're playing disinformation games with their numbering), at least, 5 more 8-ship squadrons. So say, at least, 48 BC. (But, yes, exact class and capabilities unknown).


So I guess ToF wasn't kidding when it said the MSDF was more powerful than most Verge Navies. (Though just the BCs would have done that)

I also went back and looked -it was a BC squadron. And the DN was mentioned so, yeah, they probably have more of those, particularly since they have the wormhole bridge that leads - to interesting places. That way Galton lies......

So that is probably the core of the RF Navy as it begins to coalesce when the RF is formally announced and is probably strong enough to dissuade most other systems from taking a run at the new RF. Given The Plan by the Alignment projected mess the SL/SLN was supposed to be in by the time it was to be mangled by Haven, SLN would have a lot of other things on it's plate than to go after a new formation of previously independent (and non-SL Systems).

That would support the existence of a workable military shipbuilding industry at Mannerheim since they would need to at least maintain the SDF locally even if they had been continuing to by new ships from someone like Technodyne but by this time it would have been prudent (and better cover) for Mannerheim to produce various warship classes under License from someone with an ability to amortize out the fee so they would eventually be able to produce/improve such ships with "local" improvements in building. It would also let them build for their neighbors much like Erwhon is now building for Maya.
The next question is how much-if any- Alignment etc is included in the Mannerheim ships beyond perhaps the ability to use Cataprhacts (that they "got from Technodyine").

Brigade XO wrote:I also went back and looked -it was a BC squadron. And the DN was mentioned so, yeah, they probably have more of those, particularly since they have the wormhole bridge that leads - to interesting places. That way Galton lies......

It is my understanding that Mannerheim guards a wormhole that leads to Darius, not Galton.

Galton was interesting because it does not have access to a wormhole, which made it possible to triangulate its position based on the delivery of Cataphracts.

tlb wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:I also went back and looked -it was a BC squadron. And the DN was mentioned so, yeah, they probably have more of those, particularly since they have the wormhole bridge that leads - to interesting places. That way Galton lies......

It is my understanding that Mannerheim guards a wormhole that leads to Darius, not Galton.

Galton was interesting because it does not have access to a wormhole, which made it possible to triangulate its position based on the delivery of Cataphracts.

The Felix system wormhole, (10 ly from Mannerheim) has 4 termini, Darius, the Twins..., and 2 others. Mannerheim also has a hyper bridge to the Warner system. So any of them could be... on the "way" to Galton, which we really don't know where it is other than out in the verge somewhere.

counting the twins, Mannerheim alone holds 6 wormhole legs - that's potentially very valuable.

Brigade XO wrote:
The next question is how much-if any- Alignment etc is included in the Mannerheim ships beyond perhaps the ability to use Cataprhacts (that they "got from Technodyine").

One problem is the Mannerheim society is officially anti-genetic uplift - and at least 75% of the people are not in on the joke. The part of the government and military that is in in with the Malign is an outsized percentage compared to the gen pop. How that is going to work longterm (with the part of the gen pop and the military that is not part of the "joke") is beyond me, and worth a story on it's own.