How does Honor know so much?

kzt wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
The fact that cars today have sport modes is an improvement. It means the same car can be both comfortable and sporty. If it were the only thing that mattered, they wouldn't have bothered with a switch and cars would have the exact same suspension as they did 70 years ago.

Suspension? Who needs suspension? Just bolt that axle to the frame, like it was done when men were men. And fast was 15mph.

Once upon a time, there were a group of fen who tried to drive from New York to one of the first SF World Cons. This was before World War 2, At one point, due to driving along the road in a car that might have fit this description, they appear to have hit a pothole. And broke an *axle*.

phillies wrote:
Once upon a time, there were a group of fen who tried to drive from New York to one of the first SF World Cons. This was before World War 2, At one point, due to driving along the road in a car that might have fit this description, they appear to have hit a pothole. And broke an *axle*.

Wasn't that Eisenhowser? His 1919 convoy from DC to SF averaged just 5 mph with frequent breakdowns of WWI military trucks.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Well, the LRPB is correct. They are making improvements in the number of accoutrements added. But they are not making improvements in intellect. If you keep prodding that cow the milk will sour. The result of sour milk to the MAlign is to waste it.

Why do you think they aren't improving in intellect? And why do you think the other improvements aren't important qualities for being labelled an Alpha?

There is only so much IQ that can be mined before side effects negate it all. I think the MA milked that cow dry.

I never said the other accoutrements were not important to be labeled as a "modern" Alpha. I am only saying that for the sake of our discussion about Honor, all is equal. All of the added options of the MA's Alphas won't ever come into play on the battlefield. On the battlefield it will come down to strategy and tactics. And not whether one can withstand insane elements, or if one has staying power in bed.

cthia wrote:The original Ferraris may "ride" much better, but they do not necessarily "drive" much better. The newer suspension coddles you for certain. But the road feel is absolutely gone! Nothing! Albeit nothing, drives like a go kart with so much road feel as some of those original cars. Even the automakers realize that by trying to put some of that road feel back in, by giving you a sport mode today. Meh.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The fact that cars today have sport modes is an improvement. It means the same car can be both comfortable and sporty. If it were the only thing that mattered, they wouldn't have bothered with a switch and cars would have the exact same suspension as they did 70 years ago.

Not exactly. It means a car can be both sporty and dangerous! Most sport modes mainly disable the safety features. The tires catch quicker. ABS is disabled. And a godawful amount of horsepower is unleashed. Without much added handling!

First off, Ferraris are NOT sports cars! They are closer to super cars! And for cars with that type of performance, if "comfortable" does not mean that the driver knows exactly what the car is doing at all times, it is dangerous. Creature comforts should come second to handling. I would rather be comfortable with the cars handling and alive at the end of the day than dying in comfortable seating.

Take for instance the new Ferrari 296GTB. The damn thing is insanely fast, but you just never get comfortable with its handling. A parent might feel "comfortable" about handing the keys to a Ferrari Spyder to his son/daughter. But a 296GTB? Handles like a demon. Forget about it.

Consider this, taken off the web.

It’s no secret that the Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat is a monster of a car. Powered by a supercharged HEMI engine that delivers 707 horsepower and 650 lb-ft of torque, this baby was built for speed. But that raw speed also means that Dodge had to add some extra safety measures to better ensure not just anyone would unknowingly gets behind the wheel of a vehicle with all of that horsepower, so the Dodge Charger and Challenger SRT Hellcat models have a two-key system, one key that tones down the horsepower and one that unlocks all of the engine’s potential.

Red Key
When using the red key, a driver can enjoy all of the Hellcat’s 707 horses – no restrictions, just power. There is a clear indication on the navigation screen that shows, which key is in use while also showing transmission, paddle shifters, traction and suspension options as well. Basically, if you have a curious teenager in the house, hide this key!

Black Key
Although the Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat is admittedly a lot easier to drive then one might think with all that power, there may be times where drivers don’t want to fire up all of that horsepower, or don’t want someone else (child or valet) to power up all of that horsepower. With the black key, the driver is restricted to only 500 horsepower versus 707 horsepower, which is still very powerful.

Yet, that is exactly what most "sports cars" do. The car maker put unwitting drivers behind the wheel without much control.

There is a reason BWWs are called the ultimate driving machine. Road feel! Road feel! Road feel!

Road feel can be retained without sacrificing comfort in either category.

Well, BMW was the ultimate driving machine, but they seem to have lost their way as well.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:And who is to say the original Ferrari isn't the best?

Ferrari.

The fact that they've continued to make improvements implies that they thought there were improvements to be made.

Now, a reasonable person may disagree, in either the Ferrari or the Harrington case. But this person's opinions are not relevant. Only the opinion of those are responsible for the label are, because they are the ones who bestow it in the first place.

I vehemently disagree with that! That is the purpose of a test drive, to determine if the manufacturer got it right. The manufacturer's life isn't on the line, the buyer's life is on the line. And if the buyer does not feel good about the handling, sales figures will show.

When MA Alphas meet Honor on the battlefield, they better be equal in strategy and tactics. Which to me, personally, means equal in intelligence and comfortable with the ship's "handling."

cthia wrote:Well, the LRPB is correct. They are making improvements in the number of accoutrements added. But they are not making improvements in intellect. If you keep prodding that cow the milk will sour. The result of sour milk to the MAlign is to waste it.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why do you think they aren't improving in intellect? And why do you think the other improvements aren't important qualities for being labelled an Alpha?

cthia wrote:There is only so much IQ that can be mined before side effects negate it all. I think the MA milked that cow dry.

We know that Honor's mother said that there could be bad side-effects with attempts to increase intelligence; but we have no way of knowing whether there are ways around or ways to compensate for those side effects. Your cow analogy is meaningless, except as an attempt to restate what Alison said. She was talking about what happened in previous attempts, not what might be possible in a multi-century experimental program. There have been Sci-Fi stories with intelligence orders of magnitude higher than human norms.

PS: the milk does not sour until it leaves the cow and is exposed to bacteria. Prodding the cow, just makes an angry cow.

cthia wrote:

Red Key
When using the red key, a driver can enjoy all of the Hellcat’s 707 horses – no restrictions, just power. There is a clear indication on the navigation screen that shows, which key is in use while also showing transmission, paddle shifters, traction and suspension options as well. Basically, if you have a curious teenager in the house, hide this key!

Black Key
Although the Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat is admittedly a lot easier to drive then one might think with all that power, there may be times where drivers don’t want to fire up all of that horsepower, or don’t want someone else (child or valet) to power up all of that horsepower. With the black key, the driver is restricted to only 500 horsepower versus 707 horsepower, which is still very powerful.

Yet, that is exactly what most "sports cars" do. The car maker put unwitting drivers behind the wheel without much control.

There is a reason BWWs are called the ultimate driving machine. Road feel! Road feel! Road feel!

Road feel can be retained without sacrificing comfort in either category.

Well, BMW was the ultimate driving machine, but they seem to have lost their way as well.

The guy who sold me my Ram pickup mentioned that a large proportion of the people who he'd sold the Dodge performance cars to had wrecked them in a year or two. They have enough HP that you can blast loose the rear wheels and then it's up to physics where your car goes.

I think the high end cars came with a free course on how to handle them.

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The fact that cars today have sport modes is an improvement. It means the same car can be both comfortable and sporty. If it were the only thing that mattered, they wouldn't have bothered with a switch and cars would have the exact same suspension as they did 70 years ago.

Not exactly. It means a car can be both sporty and dangerous! Most sport modes mainly disable the safety features. The tires catch quicker. ABS is disabled. And a godawful amount of horsepower is unleashed. Without much added handling!

Definitely true that sports modes tend to relax or disable some of the traction control.

Wasn't aware of any that turned off ABS. I've done a performance driving course and even the good threshold braking is inferior, in a turn, to basic ABS (if nothing else the computer can control the brakes at each wheel individually -- while we can't).
I guess rally cars might want ABS off, as when driving on gravel or other loose surfaces you can sometimes stop better by locking your wheels and thus plowing up a little berm ahead of them -- but otherwise can't see why you'd want ABS off.

As for what handling improvements they might be able to make -- that very much depends on the car. Some they can't do anything.

Some have variable dampers so the computer can adjust the stiffness of your suspension (trading off comfort for better road feel and grip). Some even have variable height suspension and can lower the car's center of mass in sports mode; which improves handling.

Some, especially with "drive by wire" can adjust the steering ratio and even the 'dead zone' for more precise steering with better feedback.

But yeah, some sports modes just disable traction control, and maybe tweak throttle response, and nothing much else.

kzt wrote:
The guy who sold me my Ram pickup mentioned that a large proportion of the people who he'd sold the Dodge performance cars to had wrecked them in a year or two. They have enough HP that you can blast loose the rear wheels and then it's up to physics where your car goes.

I think the high end cars came with a free course on how to handle them.

I had a Magnum SRT back in the mid 2000's that I put into a concrete highway divider when the rear end slid out from under me while merging into rush hour highway traffic - a slick patch of tar, a few weeks of surface oil buildup and that first September rain turned my overpowered rear end into a plaything of physics. Add in the other idiots reactions on the road and I had no choice but put it into the concrete - it was that or into that Grand Cherokee who saw me losing control in his rear view mirror, and slammed on his brakes.

Now don't call me unprepared - previously, I had bought a Porsche 944 with the top end handling package back when I graduated college. I had had a handful of upgraded light sports cars previously, but was simply unprepared for a machine like that. Smartly, I took some track classes. When I say I have done virtually every stupid car trick in that car (other than jumps, you just can't do that stuff in a car with 2.5" ground clearance), I'm not kidding - it hugged the road like an over possessive mother. You don't feel the road - you are the road. The family friend I had purchased it from told me that it wasn't the fastest car out there, but it will get from point A to B faster than anyone else - because you just don't need to slow down. Hell, I even made a cop buddy wet his pants after he asked me to show him what the car could do...

Well, the Magnum wasn't that. It sat on an upgraded S-Class suspension with a limited slip differential in the rear, and the 6.1L engine could make it moooove (Ironically it was only about as fast as the 944 with the DME tripped into race mode). It was a bruiser, pure muscle, no finesse.

So Yeah - those overpowered monsters can kill you - experienced and trained or not.

cthia wrote:There is only so much IQ that can be mined before side effects negate it all. I think the MA milked that cow dry.

I never said the other accoutrements were not important to be labeled as a "modern" Alpha. I am only saying that for the sake of our discussion about Honor, all is equal. All of the added options of the MA's Alphas won't ever come into play on the battlefield. On the battlefield it will come down to strategy and tactics. And not whether one can withstand insane elements, or if one has staying power in bed.

As tlb said above, we don't know for sure that all that could be done has been done. Given the state of Beowulf's prohibition on the experimentation, I'm pretty sure Beowulf wouldn't know for sure. They'd know that there could be side-effects, but not what workarounds for those side-effects might be.

Plus, the MAlign might be more accepting of side-effects. Intelligence makes a person a sociopath? That's a feature, not a bug!

Either way, the point remains: the MAlign has continued to do genetic experimentation for 5 centuries since the loss of contact with the Harringtons. That implies they've done something. Lots of somethings. Even if they were all "nice to have" improvements, they've accumulated. Like in the analogy of cars, we it would be like saying that the engine was perfected 70 years ago, but now we have nicer entertainment systems, air conditioning, remote telemetry, tire pressure sensors, power windows, etc. And no, neither engines nor aerodynamics were perfected 70 years ago.

The MAlign decides what an Alpha is. We don't know that they wouldn't call Honor Alpha, but we don't know that they would either. In my opinion, the most likely would point to not being so, because she has 10-13 generations of non-eugenetic ancestry and none of the splicing since.

Theemile wrote:

kzt wrote:
The guy who sold me my Ram pickup mentioned that a large proportion of the people who he'd sold the Dodge performance cars to had wrecked them in a year or two. They have enough HP that you can blast loose the rear wheels and then it's up to physics where your car goes.

I think the high end cars came with a free course on how to handle them.

I had a Magnum SRT back in the mid 2000's that I put into a concrete highway divider when the rear end slid out from under me while merging into rush hour highway traffic - a slick patch of tar, a few weeks of surface oil buildup and that first September rain turned my overpowered rear end into a plaything of physics. Add in the other idiots reactions on the road and I had no choice but put it into the concrete - it was that or into that Grand Cherokee who saw me losing control in his rear view mirror, and slammed on his brakes.

Now don't call me unprepared - previously, I had bought a Porsche 944 with the top end handling package back when I graduated college. I had had a handful of upgraded light sports cars previously, but was simply unprepared for a machine like that. Smartly, I took some track classes. When I say I have done virtually every stupid car trick in that car (other than jumps, you just can't do that stuff in a car with 2.5" ground clearance), I'm not kidding - it hugged the road like an over possessive mother. You don't feel the road - you are the road. The family friend I had purchased it from told me that it wasn't the fastest car out there, but it will get from point A to B faster than anyone else - because you just don't need to slow down. Hell, I even made a cop buddy wet his pants after he asked me to show him what the car could do...

Well, the Magnum wasn't that. It sat on an upgraded S-Class suspension with a limited slip differential in the rear, and the 6.1L engine could make it moooove (Ironically it was only about as fast as the 944 with the DME tripped into race mode). It was a bruiser, pure muscle, no finesse.

So Yeah - those overpowered monsters can kill you - experienced and trained or not.

Good reading. I enjoyed it. Glad you are alive to tell the story. I am sorry the 944 didn't make it. I loved that car. I coveted that car in college myself. I wanted one badly. But not as badly as I wanted to keep my 924. It wasn't the turbo model. I like normally aspirated engines. It was a very sexy car. I enjoyed it as much when it was parked as when I was driving it. LOL

But I am all about road feel. And the Porsches and BMW's deliver. "You are the road." I like it.

I enjoy driving when driving let's me enjoy it. I like to see the world and enjoy traveling. I want to enjoy the highway. I don't mind going through small towns and back roads in a Porsche or BMW. I even prefer it. I want something that hugs the road. I like to bond with my car.

About that Hellcat. Thing is, you can kick out the rear end with the black key. The black key is simply the lesser of two evils.

My brother let my sister drive his Hellcat. He has always been a speed demon since his '72 'Cuda. She said to him, "The damn thing is still dangerous with the black key!"

And then she said to him, "Why would you want a car so dangerous that you've got to hide the key? So your kid will find your car keys and your gun too? And what if someone in the equation is color blind? And why would a human want a car with two keys when we can't keep up with one?"

"It is an all around car."

"All around the nearest tree?"


Decades ago my Aunt visited Italy. She loved it so much she stayed for a few years. She wanted to see the running of the bulls. When she returned she commented. "Why do Italians turn their cars into uncontrollable bulls? Of all people they should know that sooner or later you are going to get bucked."

I never made that connection until now. Horses are turned into bucking broncos.

P.S. kzt, BMW offers a driver's course. It is exhilarating. They will also put you in a mock-up frame of your model car and tailor it to your specifications in certain areas. Like knee bolster. It feels like getting fitted for a suit. Nice touch. You can even watch your car coming off the assembly line.

For the M-series cars that is. I had the M5.

Oh, Jonathan! I hear that some drivers prefer disabling ABS when "drifting." I don't know, I have never drifted before. Unless it was an accident. LOL

Drifting is a new fad which originated in Japan. Basically you use your emergency brake to slide around a turn.

Late edit: My badd. It was the Magnum that hit the concrete divide. Let's save the Porsches.


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