1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy

Jonathan_S wrote:So LAC on LAC combat is either going to old style age of sail where the LAC formations angle towards each other on roughly parallel courses (so their closing velocities are low enough to be quickly canceled, even if their forward velocity is high) -- or else knights jousting where they fly at each other, quickly blow through their mutual engagement ranges and the have to slow down, reverse course, and charge again.

More like Knights? LAC's aren't alone or sole attack force so more like hit and RUN-like-Hell as the bigger badder boys will be there to ruin your day. A pure LAC-LAC fight would necessitate zero fixed defenses and slow closing velocity and here I just do not see this as viable except in extreme case scenario. If extreme case and 99% is not this, why bother as a scenario.

The slow parallel is where I am going to agree 100% with you as it works with or without defenses other ships present depending on angle of conflict. Can't be all that great of an angle as all the "end" LAC has to do is rotate ~45 degree blocking with its wedge all incoming LASER fire against the LAC formations line abreast broadsides.

Brigade XO wrote:The mode for System Defense etc is more on the line of PT-Boats. You are engaging warships way above your weight with missile and then using their stealth and speed and maneuverability to avoid or pick off what is thrown their way..

Why would you do that when the books clearly show each LAC can tow the entire pod load-out from a SD(P) without compromising stealth or acceleration?

Relax wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:So LAC on LAC combat is either going to old style age of sail where the LAC formations angle towards each other on roughly parallel courses (so their closing velocities are low enough to be quickly canceled, even if their forward velocity is high) -- or else knights jousting where they fly at each other, quickly blow through their mutual engagement ranges and the have to slow down, reverse course, and charge again.

More like Knights? LAC's aren't alone or sole attack force so more like hit and RUN-like-Hell as the bigger badder boys will be there to ruin your day. A pure LAC-LAC fight would necessitate zero fixed defenses and slow closing velocity and here I just do not see this as viable except in extreme case scenario. If extreme case and 99% is not this, why bother as a scenario.

The slow parallel is where I am going to agree 100% with you as it works with or without defenses other ships present depending on angle of conflict. Can't be all that great of an angle as all the "end" LAC has to do is rotate ~45 degree blocking with its wedge all incoming LASER fire against the LAC formations line abreast broadsides.

Though we have seen LAC formations try to blow through / past defending ones to reach the ships they're screening. For example the death ride of Manticore's LACs in the BoM after Home Fleet was wiped out.

That wasn't a slowly converging course - but a down the throat charge.

And then there was the sim Foraker was running early in WoH -- that anticipated an initial engagement between Haven's new Cimeterre-class LACs and the RMN/GSNs would be a "head-on engagement" -- though in that sim we don't know what the OpFor planned for the Allied LACs to do since they were all killed in the closing phase. We know the simulated combat reached energy range after only a couple of missile salvos -- but not what the actual closure rate was. Still "head on" doesn't sound like a slowly converting course.

Then during Thunderbolt the LACs from 'the Tamale' ended up smashing headlong into the LACs screening Haven's attack force. Though that was probably as much because they'd built up their vector to attack before the Republic forces revealed their surprise of CLACs of their own. "seven hundred-plus Cimeterres went charging outward to meet less than a third that many Manty LACs which were far too close at far too high a closing speed to even hope to evade them." -- again pretty much head-on. But again not really survivable; so there was no follow-up engagements.

And that was something of a pattern, basically happened at Grendelsbane as well. In those early attacks of the 2nd war the Republic forces seems to routinely sucked the defending Allied LACs into a high speed head-on pass and then, once they were committed, punched their own more numerous LACs down their throats. Where, between the surprise, the lopsided numbers, and the unexpected triple ripple they were quite successful at it. But it was more knights charging than ships of the line slowly converging.

Of course at Trevor's Star White Haven had the GSN Katanas do the same to the Republic's scouting LACs -- the 15 recon LACs had a vector nearly directly towards White Haven's stealthed fleet and the far more numerous GSN LACs came boiling the other way, right down their throats.


Still, none of those were anything like 'fair fights'. And Haven's LACs were always conceived primarily as a fleet screen, to attrite any Allied LAC strikes so we don't know what tactics would be adopted in more evenly matched LAC forces engaged each other far from either's fleets or support.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still, none of those were anything like 'fair fights'. And Haven's LACs were always conceived primarily as a fleet screen, to attrite any Allied LAC strikes so we don't know what tactics would be adopted in more evenly matched LAC forces engaged each other far from either's fleets or support.

We do know that Republican LACs required somewhere from 3:1 to 3:2 numeric advantage purely to be approximately the same combat effectiveness. So if both LAC formations are far from any support and it's effectively formation vs formation, would really depend on three things: total numbers per side, and the specific composition of the Allied LACs (how many Shrikes, Ferrets and Katanas), and who specifically owns the space they're skirmishing in.

From the Republican POV, when they could no longer rely on Triple Ripple, they've only really been seen screening wallers, screening a planet, or looming ominously close (but not too close) to Allied LACs waiting to charge in against cripples. Basically what they did at Chantilly against Henke's LACs as part of Smoke & Mirrors during Cutworm II.

So in any hypothetical of two LAC formations being far from starships or other support, I think Republicans would mostly be trying to either withdraw entirely, or worst case linger nearby to keep (relatively close) eyes on the Allied LACs and pray their starships arrive faster than Allied units do.

Unless they're defending their own space and they had a huge numeric advantage, and there were few to no Katanas present, then they might charge in and simply accept the casualties as the price of doing business. But in a neutral or hostile system, Republican LAC doctrine was to only attack as part of a larger whole, so without starships punching MDMs over their shoulders it's doubtful they'd push and take casualties for nothing.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though House of Steel referes to the Grayson designed Katana as a "space-superiority fighter with enhanced dogfighting capabilities"

Though it wouldn't engage in dogfights the way a fighter jet, or a Star Wars X-Wing would.

That kind of turning engagement requires the ability to change heading more quickly than you can change speed. A jet might spend 10 minutes at full military throttle and still be able to pull a 180 in just a handful of seconds. A LAC that spent 10 minutes accelerating at full power would require 20 minutes to make that same 180 degree change in vector. (And would actually take even longer if it made a wide sweeping turn; as opposed to just flipping end for end)

Without any medium to use to conserve and redirect existing momentum (like a car can with the ground, a boat with the water, or a plane with the air) a spacecraft can only change its vector by using the exact same engines to first cancel out and then rebuild the vector they already created. (X-Wings and other Star Wars ships "cheat" because Lucas wanted WWII dogfights in space so they invented technobabble, the etheric rudder, to let them make turns just like they were in atmosphere)

The closest a spaceship can get to that is making a gravity assisted turn around a planetary object. But those are rarely where you need to be in Honorverse combat -- and at the velocities the ships routinely achieve don't have much effect anyway. (Even Jupiter's ~25m/s^2 is basically nothing against a LAC that can pull over 6,250m/s^2)

So Grayson did design a dogfighting LAC. I wasn't just dreaming. If they'd only developed dogfighting tactics to go along with them. I kept waiting for their appearance. I kept waiting with baited breath. O, I am STILL waiting for them to show.

Anyway, it is true that a LAC cannot hope to change its heading as quickly as jet fighters, so the quick turns are out of the question. But just like jet fighters, LACs can't engage in dogfights unless they are at the proper speed. Even jet fighters don't engage in dogfights under full throttle. Well, with exceptions of course.

Your textev says the Grayson Katana is a space superiority fighter with enhanced dogfighting capabilities. A statement that implies that all LACs have SOME dogfighting capabilities, but Katanas enhance that capability even more.

The kind of design I can see possible to complement dogfighting includes LACs mated with overpowered plasma thrusters. If a LAC can be built with thrusters as powerful as an SD's -- or at least with the expected increase in thrust to weight ratio -- I was thinking that a LAC could do a 45 degree flip then use full thrusters to change its heading much quicker than any other LAC without the capability. LACs don't need to be able to produce the turning radius of jet fighters. They just need to change vectors much faster than enemy LACs to be effective dogfighters.

It reminds me of a funny quip. "I don't need to be able to outrun the lion. I just need to be able to outrun YOU." A dogfighter doesn't need to be able to out-turn a jet fighter, it just needs to out-turn enemy LACs.

Oversized plasma thrusters with an enormous power to weight ratio along with 45 degree flips should work well enough against what an enemy LAC can do. The F-14 dogfighters utilized a movable swept wing to push against the air.

If the thrusters on a much bigger SD can somehow overcome its enormous acceleration and vector to "slowly crab away" then the same powerful thrusters mated to a much smaller and lighter LAC should work wonders.

Also, dogfighting isn't just about quick turns. It is about mutual support and using enhanced dogfighting techniques which includes using proper angles and synchronized flying. Remember what Maverick asked a fellow pilot to do? "Bring her around, Ace, help me engage." It is all about using proper angles of attack. And if those proper angles are supported with other wingmen in the group, it should overwhelm other LAC forces. I'd say the result of using such tactics would create better than a 10:1 loss ratio in favor of the dogfighting packs; especially in conjunction with overwhelming numbers.

Relax also included an interesting tactic in his post that I was trying to create with LAC pacs towing a single LAC with its wedge toward the enemy. Thanks to Relax's post, towing isn't necessary ...

Relax wrote:LAC defensive fire for mutual support is opposite cruisers-->SD's. A LAC formation, be it manned or unmanned would by necessity have their broadsides as close to one another as possible with all BOW's pointed at incoming fire to better defend against their weak aspects using their wedges while giving mutual overlapping defensive fire at incoming targets where the LAC on the VERY end of this line abreast, would probably have its wedge tilted one direction or the other and spinning to block.

If a formation uses LAC packs of four or more and use complementary formations, more than one LAC can spin to block, covering all sides of formation. These LACs could be slaved to each other, and their computers can control the spin. Just like the missiles of Apollo's brood feeds data into the ACM, a LAC pack can send tactical data to the entire LAC pack while in dogfighting mode to assist with choosing the most effective angles of attack, spin, and moment to fire thrusters.

Nice set of posts guys!

Well House of Steel does say "The Katanas are slightly smaller and substantially more maneuverable than any of the other
Shrike variants" though I doubt that's from SD grade thrusters. LAC's don't have the volume for enough hydrogen to fuel such things.

However it's not much smaller. In fact it has the same exterior dimensions as the original Shrike Minotaur used at Hancock (71x20x20 meters); though that puts it 1 meter shorter than the main production run Shrike-B, or Ferret.

It's also a bit lighter; which should help with acceleration and maneuverability.

19,500 tons - Katana class
20,250 tons - Shrike class [3.84% heavier]
20,750 tons - Ferret class [6.41% heavier]
21,250 tons - Shrike-B class [8.97% heavier]

Still, the majority of its "dogfighting" prowess comes from carrying a missile loadout that 100% the anti-LAC Mk9 Vipers; which it can spew from its 5 forward launchers. As those are smaller than even LAC anti-ship missiles it can noticeably more missiles than a Ferret. And it is said to carry enhanced electronic warfare capabilities even over the already quite capable Shrikes and Ferrets. So it primarily "dogfights" other LACs by shredding them at missile range; where maneuvers (beyond well timed interposing of a wedge) aren't a major factor.

It's only once things close to energy range and it opens up, Gatling gun style , with its trio of SD-grade forward PDLCs that maneuvers take a somewhat larger role. But even there changing heading it mostly about interposing a wedge, sidewalls, or keeping its buckler wall (first one on a LAC) centered on the enemy -- or snapping around to bring one of those PDLCs to bear on a passing target.



But it still has only about the same linear acceleration as the other modern Alliance LACs -- so, regardless of how quickly it can change heading, it can't change its vector much quicker than they can.

To oversimplify -- it can spin more quickly 'in place' but it can't displace from its original vector significantly better than they can. A little better sure; I'd estimate about 6g more (about 0.77%) more accel. But that's hardly worth talking about when all of them should now have accels in excess of 785g.

cthia wrote:Anyway, it is true that a LAC cannot hope to change its heading as quickly as jet fighters, so the quick turns are out of the question.
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The kind of design I can see possible to complement dogfighting includes LACs mated with overpowered plasma thrusters. If a LAC can be built with thrusters as powerful as an SD's -- or at least with the expected increase in thrust to weight ratio -- I was thinking that a LAC could do a 45 degree flip then use full thrusters to change its heading much quicker than any other LAC without the capability. LACs don't need to be able to produce the turning radius of jet fighters. They just need to change vectors much faster than enemy LACs to be effective dogfighters.

They can't. The wedge is much faster at turning the ship than any thruster would be. In fact, so long as the wedge is up, thrusters might not have any effect at all.

In any case, turning 45° isn't the fastest turn. I think you meant 90°, but even then. Turning 180° is, and everyone can do that. It won't matter how long it takes everyone to do it, because the time to decelerate and re-accelerate in the direction the other force is going will be orders of magnitude higher. The two forces will meet each other head on again.

The only thing that turning would be good for is if the LAC could turn while the two forces pass through each other, so it can keep its bow graser pointed at a particular enemy sidewall, or pick up a second target to fire up the kilt after they've passed each other, but aren't too far from each other yet. But that only helps if the other side hasn't flipped, and if they can only flip half as fast, by the time this dog-fighting LAC has finished its rotation, the targets are full wedge-on and thus protected.

Also, dogfighting isn't just about quick turns.

It isn't AT ALL about quick turns. It's about everything else you said.

kzt wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:The mode for System Defense etc is more on the line of PT-Boats. You are engaging warships way above your weight with missile and then using their stealth and speed and maneuverability to avoid or pick off what is thrown their way..

Why would you do that when the books clearly show each LAC can tow the entire pod load-out from a SD(P) without compromising stealth or acceleration?

Yes, that they can do, and do it well, but, then they are doing a single launch (of all the pods, either or both of one LAC or most of them in the attach) and it is time to put distance between yourselves and warships. Distance gives maneuver room and, sure, if you have a rotary launcher for anti-ship missiles you can keep throwing them, but you want to be harder to hit.
Besides, once you have volleyed your pods, you probably have a secondary part in the engagement depending on what is going on. Picking off cripples or hitting some range of secondary targets....not to mention the probability of being tasked to intercept missiles bring fired at your hyper capable ships to cut down the volume the big ships defenses have to deal with.

Even if it's "just" a LAC (well an RMN or RHN LAC), the other side has to honor the very real and dangerous threat it/they represent and somebody has to track them- and spend tactical time on them. If your defending a system and you have somebody else's modern LACs running around, your going to have to direct resources at keeping track of them -if you can- and wonder about what they are looking to do. PT-Boats excelled at that. Except that , for the most part, they usually tried to creep in quietly on targets, launch (it's just torpedoes) quietly and only ram the throttles open when their ordence hits something or the other side spots something and starts shooting at them.

LACs (as well as PT Boats) are hard to lock up with tracking and then hit. Fast, maneuverable. And total eggshells if they do get hit with anything serious.

Well, if you have 6000 Mk23s per LAC that should be enough.

I’m being factious here, but basically David has decreed that RMN LACs are superships, anle to leap tall building in a single bound while being invisible.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Though House of Steel referes to the Grayson designed Katana as a "space-superiority fighter with enhanced dogfighting capabilities"

Though it wouldn't engage in dogfights the way a fighter jet, or a Star Wars X-Wing would.

So LAC on LAC combat is either going to old style age of sail where the LAC formations angle towards each other on roughly parallel courses (so their closing velocities are low enough to be quickly canceled, even if their forward velocity is high) -- or else knights jousting where they fly at each other, quickly blow through their mutual engagement ranges and the have to slow down, reverse course, and charge again.

You can jink around or you can try to interpose your wedge -- but you can't get into a turning dogfight. The physics simply don't allow it.



And while LAC wings do adopt formations they tend to be optimized to provide the best overlapping defensive fire, while leaving room to jink around. They don't have to worry about other LACs getting on their tail -- just on surviving the fire coming their way. And the best way to do that is to spread enough that every LAC can engage any missile sent the formation's way.

So those are more spread out formations, not LACs tucked in close, partially (or fully) behind their leader.

The physics are not supposed to allow it in reality, I agree. But it seems to be allowed in the HV. Or how could Sonja counter the triple ripple? It seems like it would be a lot easier for the much larger but also much slower LAC to make the turns Sonja asked of missiles in order for them to evade the triple ripple.

You've got missiles traveling at a very high percent of C. And they're expected to quickly "dive" to avoid enemy missiles???; Where enemy missiles and friendly missiles are both traveling at a large percent of C? It should require significantly more effort to accomplish that with missiles than with a much slower LAC.

At speeds approaching C, everything approaches infinity.

Missiles somehow have the ability to weave in and out of formations???

Where can I find the "shorts" in my wires?