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1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy

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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:59 am

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Nobody runs with a 0% safety margin permanently, for extreme battle needs yes certainly, but it's definitely not a daily thing. Just because there hasn't been a known compensator failure in almost two decades in the Haven Sector doesn't mean Manticore has completely eliminated the chance of it happening at all.


And everybody in the Haven Sector had come to realize 20% was much too conserative, so even Haven was regularly running a 90% of max simply to try to keep up. They'd go to 0% margins for specific battles, because Republican ships at 0% margin were as fast as Manticorans at 90% of max, and hope that Manticore would choose not to run any more risk than they had to and throw their safety margins out too.
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:09 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:But maybe they have impellers that, while far better than the ones in other "classic" LACs, still aren't quite powerful enough to max out their compensator. (Whereas starships normally have nodes that can trivially max out the compensator) Thus making 500g their impeller power limit, and not a compensator limit.


As for the pinnaces safety margin -- it looks like you're right. It didn't use the terms "maximum military power" or "zero safety margin"; but it did say "went to maximum power, decelerating at six hundred gravities". So that probably is maximum military power; aka zero safety margin. And so the pair of pinnaces probably was risking compensator failure over the ~2 hours they should need to accelerate to achieve zero/zero with the freighter (50 minutes to come to a stop, having overshot the freighter by about 26.46 million km, and then another ~35 minutes to head 13.23 million km back, and a final ~35 minutes to stop again)


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[1] In theory the Manties could have mitigated that risk for themselves during that initial boost phase by having the pinnaces accelerate in formation with the LACs; only tractoring on after everybody has cut acceleration. If 600g is 0% margin then the 500g they'd need to pace the LACs' boost would be about 16% safety margin; far more than the Mantie's now normal of 10%. But there's nothing indicating that they did that.
And it'd seem pretty insulting to the Nuncians to refuse to share the risk you were asking their LAC crews to take.


They didn't need to accelerate at 500g to get that high a speed, and also remember they had to specifically DROP their wedges and were coasting in ballistic. So there's an upper limit on how high you could accelerate because once the wedge came down, your particle screens drop in power considerably.

So what I think they did, was run up their speed at a 'safe' acceleration, they're only LACs after all and could stay undetected from quite a long way away, and then shut their wedges down before any possible RDs could have been close enough to pick them up. This is in addition to Hexapuma busy pretending to be a freighter, which would draw any notional RDs their way instead of a proper system scouting, which further increased the LAC stealth.

But after they opened fire, all bets were off and everybody, Nuncian and Manticoran alike, all decelerated at maximum presumably military power with 0% margin to get back to the captured freighter ASAP, before the pirates could effect any jury-rigged repairs and escape into hyper.
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:28 am

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Found the acceleration bit... they broke orbit from Nuncio and then sat in space with 0 relative velocity, letting the planet move away from them for 5 hours.

Shadow of Saganami, Ch 19 wrote:She looked down at the chrono once more and nodded as it came up on the five-hour mark since her remote arrays had detected the intruders. Five hours in which Pontifex had moved over half a million kilometers, taking Hexapuma with it. If the bogeys had managed to put one over on Hexapuma and get a recon drone into space headed to intercept the planet at the time they themselves would approach the hyper limit, its course would take it far enough from Wolverine's present position to make anything as weak as a LAC's impeller signature invisible to them. And since Bogey One and Two themselves were still far beyond shipboard detection range of the planet—

"Stand by for acceleration in three minutes," Captain Einarsson's voice said in her earbug.

The three minutes ticked past into eternity, and then the six LACs and their pinnace parasites went instantly to five hundred gravities of acceleration.



They waited 5 hours to get away from RD's, accelerated by using the Nuncian LACs 500g acceleration on course to intercept the freighter, and then dropped the wedges entirely. And technically the Nuncian LACs were only going along as a backup plan, as per later

Ch 20 wrote:"Sir," she said in her most formal tones, "this is Lieutenant Hearns. Our sensor data confirms identification as a Dromedary class. I'm downloading the hull schematic to you. As you'll see, Sir, she's a spinal design, and I've highlighted her hyper generator room's location. According to her emissions, her generator is off-line, and it looks like only her beta nodes are live at standby levels."
-snip-
The small force of Nuncian vessels and their Manticoran parasites were moving towards the freighter at a relative velocity of just a hair over 17,650 KPS, and the LACs' maximum deceleration rate was five hundred gravities. It had taken them an hour of steady acceleration to reach their current velocity before shutting down their wedges to avoid detection, and it would take them another hour to kill their velocity, during which time they would cover another 31,771,000-plus kilometers. At the moment, they were about forty-two million klicks from the freighter, so to decelerate for a zero/zero intercept, they'd have to begin decelerating in no more than four minutes. The pinnaces, with their higher acceleration rate, had a bit more time to play with—they could achieve a zero/zero intercept if they began decelerating any time in the next fifteen minutes. If they didn't begin decelerating, they'd blow past Bogey Three at a range of about 67,500 kilometers and a velocity of over seventeen thousand KPS, in a shade over forty minutes.

But the instant any of them began decelerating, even a half-blind freighter with civilian-grade sensors was bound to spot them, and they would still be far out of energy weapon range. The small lasers mounted by Hexapuma's pinnaces, without the more powerful gravitic lensing of their mothership's main battery weapons, would do well to inflict damage at any range over eighty thousand kilometers. The Nuncian LACs' lasers, although bigger, with more brute power, had far poorer fire control. They had the range to hit the freighter from a half million kilometers, but they'd have no effective control of where they hit it, and the sheer power of their weapons made any hit far more likely to inflict damage which might prove lethal instead of merely crippling.

So they'd have to overfly the freighter, disable her hyper generator in passing with the pinnaces' lasers, and then decelerate and come back. The fact that the Dromedaries were a spinal design would help—Abigail had been afraid they'd have to penetrate deeply into their target's hull to reach her generator, and Captain Terekhov had been forced to face the same possibility. That was the real reason Wolverine and the other LACs were along, because in the end, Terekhov was willing to risk destroying the freighter if that was the only way to stop it, and the Nuncian weapons were powerful enough to blast through to a deeply buried target.



They couldn't be sure the pinnaces alone could handle the freighter, whether due to hot nodes or the wrong design, so the LACs were part of it for a contingency scenario, and their slower acceleration curve made the case for how quick they could accelerate to sneak in ballistic, and whether or not you have to use their larger but less accurate guns, or hold out for the pinnaces to pull a (somewhat) precision strike.
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:05 pm

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The SLN would be well served by working on incremental improvements at attempted accelerated rate and perhaps only building prototype ships for proof of concept?

Any LAC is going to be limited by the compensator no matter how much power you can use on the impeller drives. It depends on mass and compensator. You also have to pay attention to how much you need for other equipment. Best example is a Dispatch Boat. The minimal acceptable space for crew and the mandatory environmental equipment plus communications, sensors, controls and the combination of impellers and hyperdrive (and W-sails) plus storage space for not a lot more than consumables for crew and any (few) passengers. No weapons, possibly some defensive weapons like PPC but not even box launchers for missiles.

SL (or Alignment) might acquire "usable" LAC debris from somewhere but then it's reengineering time. 1st that they are using that Grayson developed fission pile as the power source and 2nd the Grayson/Manticore military compensator.

As far as SLN not thinking they needed to bother with what neobarb "navy's" were doing, remember that The Alignment had deeply infiltrated anything to do with SLN Naval Intelligence and there was massive internal pressure to NOT look at anything or find anything usefull that might have made it through the Alignment screens on intelligence. Naval Analysis was among the places plugged up with graft/self interest of people and military industrial contractors so there was a lot of sticky resistance and crafting of reports and memos to represent superior's wishes, desires, point of view and not breaking anybody's rice bowl. The 1st (and best) filter was in prefered attitude of "it wasn't developed here" and 2nd was "nothing the neobarbs could be doing would make any difference. Fighting your boss's preferred results makes for difficult career advancement.

At this point, any observations- even perhaps scanner data from Monica if it could be wheedled out of them after signing those agreements with Manticore, could be helpful in providing data.
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by cthia   » Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:27 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:The SLN would be well served by working on incremental improvements at attempted accelerated rate and perhaps only building prototype ships for proof of concept?

Any LAC is going to be limited by the compensator no matter how much power you can use on the impeller drives. It depends on mass and compensator. You also have to pay attention to how much you need for other equipment. Best example is a Dispatch Boat. The minimal acceptable space for crew and the mandatory environmental equipment plus communications, sensors, controls and the combination of impellers and hyperdrive (and W-sails) plus storage space for not a lot more than consumables for crew and any (few) passengers. No weapons, possibly some defensive weapons like PPC but not even box launchers for missiles.

SL (or Alignment) might acquire "usable" LAC debris from somewhere but then it's reengineering time. 1st that they are using that Grayson developed fission pile as the power source and 2nd the Grayson/Manticore military compensator.

As far as SLN not thinking they needed to bother with what neobarb "navy's" were doing, remember that The Alignment had deeply infiltrated anything to do with SLN Naval Intelligence and there was massive internal pressure to NOT look at anything or find anything usefull that might have made it through the Alignment screens on intelligence. Naval Analysis was among the places plugged up with graft/self interest of people and military industrial contractors so there was a lot of sticky resistance and crafting of reports and memos to represent superior's wishes, desires, point of view and not breaking anybody's rice bowl. The 1st (and best) filter was in prefered attitude of "it wasn't developed here" and 2nd was "nothing the neobarbs could be doing would make any difference. Fighting your boss's preferred results makes for difficult career advancement.

At this point, any observations- even perhaps scanner data from Monica if it could be wheedled out of them after signing those agreements with Manticore, could be helpful in providing data.

Closing the compensator gap should be a reasonable goal, I'd think. Compared to rest of the other tech gap.

And since their energy weapon technology is equal to or better than the GA's (textev) building LACs in horrendous numbers with very powerful energy weapons might be a good option.

Quantity is its own quality.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Joat42   » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:31 pm

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cthia wrote:And since their energy weapon technology is equal to or better than the GA's (textev) building LACs in horrendous numbers with very powerful energy weapons might be a good option.

New LAC's are mostly useless unless they can be attached to a modern fleet. The only thing that makes sense in regards to new LAC's are that they can be used as in-system defense/anti piracy which could free up older ships and manpower and any money saved there could be funneled into R&D.

---
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by kzt   » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:34 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:And since their energy weapon technology is equal to or better than the GA's (textev) building LACs in horrendous numbers with very powerful energy weapons might be a good option.

New LAC's are mostly useless unless they can be attached to a modern fleet. The only thing that makes sense in regards to new LAC's are that they can be used as in-system defense/anti piracy which could free up older ships and manpower and any money saved there could be funneled into R&D.

Powerful energy weapons just means they have to enter the engagement range of vastly more deadly energy weapons. Depending on your adversities to be incompetent is not a great plan. Note how shrikes were deprecated in favor of missile armed LACs.
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by cthia   » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:05 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:And since their energy weapon technology is equal to or better than the GA's (textev) building LACs in horrendous numbers with very powerful energy weapons might be a good option.

New LAC's are mostly useless unless they can be attached to a modern fleet. The only thing that makes sense in regards to new LAC's are that they can be used as in-system defense/anti piracy which could free up older ships and manpower and any money saved there could be funneled into R&D.

kzt wrote:Powerful energy weapons just means they have to enter the engagement range of vastly more deadly energy weapons. Depending on your adversities to be incompetent is not a great plan. Note how shrikes were deprecated in favor of missile armed LACs.

But those Shrikes were not capable of being produced in horrendous numbers, in the tens of thousands.

Remember, the SLN is a G I A N T that is no longer sleeping.

Think twenty to thirty thousand Shrikes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Joat42   » Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:17 am

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cthia wrote:But those Shrikes were not capable of being produced in horrendous numbers, in the tens of thousands.

Remember, the SLN is a G I A N T that is no longer sleeping.

Think twenty to thirty thousand Shrikes.

Who are going to build them? Who are going to build the carriers for them? Who are going to fund such a building program? What are they going to be used for?

What you call a giant is actually comprised of a number of members who doesn't necessarily want to dedicate building capacity to pumping out LAC's for no apparent reason.

---
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Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by tlb   » Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:28 am

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cthia wrote:But those Shrikes were not capable of being produced in horrendous numbers, in the tens of thousands.

Remember, the SLN is a G I A N T that is no longer sleeping.

Think twenty to thirty thousand Shrikes.

Joat42 wrote:Who are going to build them? Who are going to build the carriers for them? Who are going to fund such a building program? What are they going to be used for?

What you call a giant is actually comprised of a number of members who doesn't necessarily want to dedicate building capacity to pumping out LAC's for no apparent reason.

Without guessing what the funding situation will look like after the new constitution, I assume most members will want to support system defense and the best way to do that is to build a League standard LAC that will be manned by Solarian Navy reserves at each planet. Not only does each planet get support, but also every planet with the capacity will receive building contracts.
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