1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy

cthia wrote:
A thought occurs. Does one good turn deserve another? The SL should attempt to purchase designs from Haven, since the shoe is on the other foot. A stripped down LAC design shouldn't be classified, should it?

Haven didn't really view what they got from the League as a
good turn" -- officially the League embargoed sales of military arms or tech to either side of the Haven Manticore war, and the illegal under the table arms sales to Haven were mostly at exorbitant extortionate rates. The arms dealers knew Haven was desperate and over a barrel and charged the world for what little tech they'd sell them.

Left quite the sour taste in Haven's mouth. Haven was quite relieved when it reached the point it no longer needed them, and really enjoyed giving them the cold shoulder once the tables turned and they got wind of the kind of tech Haven had started to reverse engineer or reinvent.

So I doubt Theisman or Pritchart have any interest in selling military tech to the League at the moment. (Not to mention that the parts that would make a LAC chassis useful to the League, like an improved compensator, damned well are classified)

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:
A thought occurs. Does one good turn deserve another? The SL should attempt to purchase designs from Haven, since the shoe is on the other foot. A stripped down LAC design shouldn't be classified, should it?

Haven didn't really view what they got from the League as a
good turn" -- officially the League embargoed sales of military arms or tech to either side of the Haven Manticore war, and the illegal under the table arms sales to Haven were mostly at exorbitant extortionate rates. The arms dealers knew Haven was desperate and over a barrel and charged the world for what little tech they'd sell them.

Left quite the sour taste in Haven's mouth. Haven was quite relieved when it reached the point it no longer needed them, and really enjoyed giving them the cold shoulder once the tables turned and they got wind of the kind of tech Haven had started to reverse engineer or reinvent.

So I doubt Theisman or Pritchart have any interest in selling military tech to the League at the moment. (Not to mention that the parts that would make a LAC chassis useful to the League, like an improved compensator, damned well are classified)

Good points. True about Theisman or Pritchart. But I wasn't suggesting that they be approached. Any sale of tech that originated in the MBS probably has to be approved by Manticore and Grayson anyway. And I doubt either of them would.

I was thinking about a stripped down version of a LAC design, because SL LACs are much bigger AND slower? But I didn't consider that the GA's LACS could be built smaller because of the smaller powerplant. At any rate, a smaller LAC would be at least a tad faster.

Anyway, I was thinking about a more clandestine attempt to purchase AND sell tech under the table. There might be some old plans floating about in the hands of members of the former regime. Our previous President Trump took home hundreds of pages of classified data.

cthia wrote:I was thinking about a stripped down version of a LAC design, because SL LACs are much bigger AND slower? But I didn't consider that the GA's LACS could be built smaller because of the smaller powerplant. At any rate, a smaller LAC would be at least a tad faster.

AFAIK we've never heard of, or seen, and SL LAC design.

Still, odds are that they are bigger and slower than any of Haven's Cimeterre LACs.

However we also don't have any actual specs on the size or mass of those LACs -- but we do know that at least as the start of the 2nd war they had accelerations (given their less capable compensators) weren't quite up there with Shrikes or Ferrits, were still far in advance of "classic" LACs.

But then classic LACs are limited by their weak impeller nodes -- they're not capable of maxing out even old-style, pre-Grayson, compensators.

From the books, SITS, and Jaynes we know the details of 4 'classic' LAC classes:
SCN's Mazur-class | 12,250 tons | 409.1g
RMN's Highlander-class | 11,250 tons | 409.3g
GSN's Faith-class | 11,250 tons | 409.3g
RHN's Project 13-class | 10,250 tons | 409.6g

Note that those are no better than the acceleration of the old 7,781,250 ton Victory-class SD!! (Over 600 times the tonnage, but the same acceleration!)

Even with old-style compensators those 4 should have had accelerations of 545.3 - 546.0g. So without a design for improved LAC nodes simply shedding mass isn't much use; if shaving off 2,000 tons only boosted their accel by 0.5g. Based on that, even magically cutting a Project 13's tonnage in half to a tiny 5,125 tons would presumably only bump up the acceleration to a measly 410.9g!


So, at a minimum, the Cimeterre designers figured out how to squeeze in more powerful nodes -- which on its own could have gotten them over 55% of the way to a Shrike's acceleration. But the text of WoH implies they probably got closer than that - though it does say a Cimeterre's "less efficient inertial compensator meant its maximum acceleration rate was more sluggish" (it just doesn't give an actual acceleration number, nor characterize how much more sluggish). So just selling the hull alone would get the League virtually nothing -- the key technologies they'd need are improved LAC sized nodes and more efficient inertial compensators.

But I think Pitchart and Theisman would still have a tight enough lock on the Cimeterre design (which, remember, came out of Bolthole) that the League would have a very hard time finding someone who could sell them the relevant technical secrets, or examples to reverse engineer, under the counter.

cthia wrote:I was thinking about a stripped down version of a LAC design, because SL LACs are much bigger AND slower? But I didn't consider that the GA's LACS could be built smaller because of the smaller powerplant. At any rate, a smaller LAC would be at least a tad faster.

Anyway, I was thinking about a more clandestine attempt to purchase AND sell tech under the table. There might be some old plans floating about in the hands of members of the former regime. Our previous President Trump took home hundreds of pages of classified data.

Are you asking if the SL should spy on the GA or Erewhon or Maya and try to acquire by clandestine means? Of course... just don't get caught at it. Even allies spy on allies.

It doesn't mean they'll succeed at it either.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I was thinking about a stripped down version of a LAC design, because SL LACs are much bigger AND slower? But I didn't consider that the GA's LACS could be built smaller because of the smaller powerplant. At any rate, a smaller LAC would be at least a tad faster.

Anyway, I was thinking about a more clandestine attempt to purchase AND sell tech under the table. There might be some old plans floating about in the hands of members of the former regime. Our previous President Trump took home hundreds of pages of classified data.

Are you asking if the SL should spy on the GA or Erewhon or Maya and try to acquire by clandestine means? Of course... just don't get caught at it. Even allies spy on allies.

It doesn't mean they'll succeed at it either.

I never considered spying, but yes, if they can. By all means possible. But I think spying is unlikely. Of all the navies, the SL is probably the only one not to engage in spying because of their arrogance. They already had the best tech out there and there was simply no need to spy on NEOBARBS. There was absolutely nothing to gain there. And getting someone in place at this late a date to do them any good in a reasonable amount of time is highly unlikely.

I was thinking more like finding the right person who hates Pritchart and the new regime. There should be many.

cthia wrote:I never considered spying, but yes, if they can. By all means possible. But I think spying is unlikely. Of all the navies, the SL is probably the only one not to engage in spying because of their arrogance. They already had the best tech out there and there was simply no need to spy on NEOBARBS. There was absolutely nothing to gain there. And getting someone in place at this late a date to do them any good in a reasonable amount of time is highly unlikely.

I was thinking more like finding the right person who hates Pritchart and the new regime. There should be many.

That was before they got their asses handed off to them by those selfsame neobarbs. Any shadow of arrogance that the neobarbs could produce something better is well and truly gone. Any SLN officer who refuses to accept that must be sacked.

Yes, they should try to acquire by covert means and also by overt ones; maybe someone is willing to sell some decades-old hardware. Also, we do know that the SLN didn't send observers, but other polities did so some of those other small polities may have something to sell to the SL.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Also, we do know that the SLN didn't send observers, but other polities did so some of those other small polities may have something to sell to the SL.

Those neutral observer SDF's have even less to sell to the SLN. "Oh yeah, during a few battles we were observing, we saw some LACs with remarkably high accelerations before their EW came up and we couldn't see them again no matter how hard we looked." Maybe they'd even have some of the data which they could glean just how fast some Cimeterre's, Shrike's, and Katana's were actually accelerating at, but seeing it done with nothing else isn't very valuable, all it does is reconfirm what the SLN have already seen (and gotten shot by).

Same logic applies to podnoughts, pod-battlecruisers, Nike-class BCs, and Sag-C's with their DDMs. Anything the SLN could possibly buy from the SDF neutral observers, they already have (limited) data on because they've engaged with them, and lost the majority of entire task forces with few escapees.


Now if the SLN were smart, they'd keep it firmly in mind to talk to what was nominally an important sub-group of the SLN. They might be "weekend warriors" compared to the SLN, but if they'd actually spoke to one another as equals, they might actually have avoided the whole war in the first place (in a best case), or at the very least not have been so completely blindsided due to institutional blinders and NIH syndrome. But we can all put safe money that the SLN probably will not in fact ever think highly of SDF's, or ever actually listen to them. But they might actually change to remember that other people can invent things they can't.

The SLN was (what 20?) years away from inventing their own FTL system and it wouldn't fit in anything less than a waller (source was Byng I think), meanwhile Manticore had it engineered down so small it fit into the ~10m long Ghost Rider drones, and did it tactically by 1914 (~1 year before Ghost Rider) and experimentally in 1903 defending Grayson from Saladin/Thunder, by Honor who wasn't an official testee, which means it was a classified experiment (McKeon was doing that) in 1902 and possibly even late 1901 (after OBS, but prior to HotQ).

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I was thinking about a stripped down version of a LAC design, because SL LACs are much bigger AND slower? But I didn't consider that the GA's LACS could be built smaller because of the smaller powerplant. At any rate, a smaller LAC would be at least a tad faster.

AFAIK we've never heard of, or seen, and SL LAC design.

Still, odds are that they are bigger and slower than any of Haven's Cimeterre LACs.

However we also don't have any actual specs on the size or mass of those LACs -- but we do know that at least as the start of the 2nd war they had accelerations (given their less capable compensators) weren't quite up there with Shrikes or Ferrits, were still far in advance of "classic" LACs.

But then classic LACs are limited by their weak impeller nodes -- they're not capable of maxing out even old-style, pre-Grayson, compensators.

From the books, SITS, and Jaynes we know the details of 4 'classic' LAC classes:
SCN's Mazur-class | 12,250 tons | 409.1g
RMN's Highlander-class | 11,250 tons | 409.3g
GSN's Faith-class | 11,250 tons | 409.3g
RHN's Project 13-class | 10,250 tons | 409.6g

Note that those are no better than the acceleration of the old 7,781,250 ton Victory-class SD!! (Over 600 times the tonnage, but the same acceleration!)

Even with old-style compensators those 4 should have had accelerations of 545.3 - 546.0g. So without a design for improved LAC nodes simply shedding mass isn't much use; if shaving off 2,000 tons only boosted their accel by 0.5g. Based on that, even magically cutting a Project 13's tonnage in half to a tiny 5,125 tons would presumably only bump up the acceleration to a measly 410.9g!


So, at a minimum, the Cimeterre designers figured out how to squeeze in more powerful nodes -- which on its own could have gotten them over 55% of the way to a Shrike's acceleration. But the text of WoH implies they probably got closer than that - though it does say a Cimeterre's "less efficient inertial compensator meant its maximum acceleration rate was more sluggish" (it just doesn't give an actual acceleration number, nor characterize how much more sluggish). So just selling the hull alone would get the League virtually nothing -- the key technologies they'd need are improved LAC sized nodes and more efficient inertial compensators.

But I think Pitchart and Theisman would still have a tight enough lock on the Cimeterre design (which, remember, came out of Bolthole) that the League would have a very hard time finding someone who could sell them the relevant technical secrets, or examples to reverse engineer, under the counter.

Jonathan, thanks for the info. But my brain must have misfiled something. I was almost certain I read somewhere that in the history of the LAC the SL was the very first to produce one. Long long time ago.

[quote="Jonathan_S] "AFAIK we've never heard of, or seen, and SL LAC design.[/quote]

LACs have been around for centuries - we see a variant as small corvettes in the Prequal novels. Every major navy had them, but they were anemic, lightly armed and defended patrol craft compared to the modern Manty Super LAC which in turn are comparable to SLN Destroyers and Light cruisers.


I believe the LACS at Montana in SftS were old Solarian designs (I don't have the text in front of me) and while most are probably in the 10 Kton range, I believe the largest one (used against the Freighter) massed 45Ktons (making it technically a modern Corvette)

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote: "AFAIK we've never heard of, or seen, and SL LAC design.

LACs have been around for centuries - we see a variant as small corvettes in the Prequal novels. Every major navy had them, but they were anemic, lightly armed and defended patrol craft compared to the modern Manty Super LAC which in turn are comparable to SLN Destroyers and Light cruisers.


I believe the LACS at Montana in SftS were old Solarian designs (I don't have the text in front of me) and while most are probably in the 10 Kton range, I believe the largest one (used against the Freighter) massed 45Ktons (making it technically a modern Corvette)

I wasn't saying the League (or its SDFs) didn't have them -- I was saying we didn't know anything about their specs.


And I'm not seeing anything in SftS about pre-RMN LACs at Montata. Are you possibly thinking of the LACs that Hexapuma's pinnaces hitched a ride on at Nuncio in SoS?

They had 11 of them "and the biggest of them masses all of eighteen thousand tons." (which is huge for a LAC; the other 4 "classic" LAC designs we knew of were in the 10,250 - 12,250 ton range) That said the 6 that were used to ferry the pinnaces were "not that much smaller than the LACs [GSN] had when Lady Harrington took out Thunder of God" (which I believe were the 11,250 ton Faith class); but were capable of at least 500 gravities (which does mean they must have had more powerful impellers than anything the RMN, GSN, SCN, or RHN had prior to the Series 282-class LACs Wayfarer took to Silesia). [That or RFC forgot LACs were normally slow for their mass ]
But the only other thing we seem to know about the Nuncian LACs is that Commodore Karlberg said their "electronics are pretty much crap compared to yours" after saying they were unable to get a good sensor reading on their intruders (one of which turned out to be that pre-ceasefire Mars-class CA).

They don't say those were old League designs - though I admit that's the most likely source. (Though I guess it's possible they may have filtered in from the IAN through their Asgard terminus; as Nuncio is over on that side of the Cluster)

But we don't have their dimensions; we don't have a definitive statement of those 6 LACs max acceleration [see below], nor their tonnage -- just that they're a bit smaller [size or tonnage or both?] than the GSN's pre alliance LACs (class and specs unmentioned). So we still don't know much about them except the biggest is heavy for a LAC [unknown if that means it's bigger than normal or if, like the 282s, Shrikes, etc. its just denser than normal] and at least some of them are much quicker than other old style LACs.

----
We also don't know what acceleration level they were at to get 500g. The text does say "the LACs' maximum deceleration rate was five hundred gravities" but I don't know if that means they'd been accelerating the whole time at 0% safety margin, or if 500 is their max at their non-emergency max safety margin. Still, if it isn't 0% it's pretty much got to be under 9% safety margin unless they also have a post-Grayson compensator.