Puzzling lack of Galton system deterrence

Joat42 wrote:

NebulousAnswer wrote:It would just be so much in line with what they had done to Beowolf, and really their only option if in fact Galton was their final base, as they wanted the GA to believe. Their failure to employ such a tactic should have been an enormous signal to the GA that Galton was not in fact their innermost base.

The problem with that scenario is that then everyone would sit up and take notice of what the GA has been saying all along. It would also definitely tell everyone that someone willing to nuke civilian population centers in such fashion is most likely also behind the destruction on Mesa.

The whole point with Galton was to provide a plausible end for the bad guys, but if there is any trace left that points to that was not the case, senseless nuking's will only make the GA look at such evidence so much harder. It's entirely possible other starnations will also start looking - and that is something the MAlign doesn't really want because they can't be sure that they have eliminated all the loose ends.

Besides, Such a threat is just a justification for the GA to use the biggest gun at their disposal. You don't leave a rabid dog run around your neighborhood just because he attacks you and your kids - you put him down as hard and as fast as you can. If the bombs are there, they are going to use them, the when or why is just a matter of time and capriciousness. The fact that they are playing that card just shows how dangerous and despicable they are. Hesitating and playing anything their way just gets more people killed in the end.

Joat42 wrote:

NebulousAnswer wrote:It would just be so much in line with what they had done to Beowolf, and really their only option if in fact Galton was their final base, as they wanted the GA to believe. Their failure to employ such a tactic should have been an enormous signal to the GA that Galton was not in fact their innermost base.

The problem with that scenario is that then everyone would sit up and take notice of what the GA has been saying all along. It would also definitely tell everyone that someone willing to nuke civilian population centers in such fashion is most likely also behind the destruction on Mesa.

The whole point with Galton was to provide a plausible end for the bad guys, but if there is any trace left that points to that was not the case, senseless nuking's will only make the GA look at such evidence so much harder. It's entirely possible other starnations will also start looking - and that is something the MAlign doesn't really want because they can't be sure that they have eliminated all the loose ends.

Theemile wrote:Besides, Such a threat is just a justification for the GA to use the biggest gun at their disposal. You don't leave a rabid dog run around your neighborhood just because he attacks you and your kids - you put him down as hard and as fast as you can. If the bombs are there, they are going to use them, the when or why is just a matter of time and capriciousness. The fact that they are playing that card just shows how dangerous and despicable they are. Hesitating and playing anything their way just gets more people killed in the end.

I agree. IF you can put them down.

But that's the thing. You can't put down an entity that virtually lives in an anthill. You take out the hill in the BACK yard, fine. Couple of days later they show up in your FRONT yard.

You've got to find a way to extinguish the whole hive at once. You can feed them poison to take all through the hive. Pesticides. Translate that into destroying the MA by infiltrating them somehow, or turning one of their agents. But unless you are sure you are destroying the entire hive of fire ants, you ain't gonna be so happy when they light your ass on fire when you least expect it. You know what fire ants are like when you mess with their livelihood. They go all berserk on you, sacrificing themselves to completely destroy the enemy.

They have other hives. You have just one.

cthia wrote:I agree. IF you can put them down.

But that's the thing. You can't put down an entity that virtually lives in an anthill. You take out the hill in the BACK yard, fine. Couple of days later they show up in your FRONT yard.

You've got to find a way to extinguish the whole hive at once. You can feed them poison to take all through the hive. Pesticides. Translate that into destroying the MA by infiltrating them somehow, or turning one of their agents. But unless you are sure you are destroying the entire hive of fire ants, you ain't gonna be so happy when they light your ass on fire when you least expect it. You know what fire ants are like when you mess with their livelihood. They go all berserk on you, sacrificing themselves to completely destroy the enemy.

They have other hives. You have just one.

So you are saying nothing can be done, unless it can "extinguish the whole hive at once"? That sounds like a prescription for doing nothing at all. As each and every mound is found, steps must be taken to eliminate its contribution to the hive and eventually the hive will die. Yes, people will die in this effort; but the business of the Malign is killing people, so only an eventual victory over the Malign will stop the dying that they cause.

Note that even if you could infiltrate Galton, that would not give you information about Darius.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree. IF you can put them down.

But that's the thing. You can't put down an entity that virtually lives in an anthill. You take out the hill in the BACK yard, fine. Couple of days later they show up in your FRONT yard.

You've got to find a way to extinguish the whole hive at once. You can feed them poison to take all through the hive. Pesticides. Translate that into destroying the MA by infiltrating them somehow, or turning one of their agents. But unless you are sure you are destroying the entire hive of fire ants, you ain't gonna be so happy when they light your ass on fire when you least expect it. You know what fire ants are like when you mess with their livelihood. They go all berserk on you, sacrificing themselves to completely destroy the enemy.

They have other hives. You have just one.

So you are saying nothing can be done, unless it can "extinguish the whole hive at once"? That sounds like a prescription for doing nothing at all. As each and every mound is found, steps must be taken to eliminate its contribution to the hive and eventually the hive will die. Yes, people will die in this effort; but the business of the Malign is killing people, so only an eventual victory over the Malign will stop the dying that they cause.

Note that even if you could infiltrate Galton, that would not give you information about Darius.

I am saying proceed with caution and weigh all of the elements on the scale. You all know what I think about attacking Darius. This is not an exercise of business as usual. Brute force is not going to work against an enemy that has no morals, scruples or values. What good is winning a battle if you lose the war along with your only home, Manticore, plus the home system of your allies. Actually, that is stupid.

Senseless, misplaced pride kills. Blind, senseless misplaced pride destroys. With this enemy, you have got to know that the next system you attack is the last. Especially if they are warning you that they have a mega grenade and the pin is pulled.

cthia wrote:With this enemy, you have got to know that the next system you attack is the last. Especially if they are warning you that they have a mega grenade and the pin is pulled.

As you have pointed out, that is something the Grand Alliance cannot know; there could always be another hidden system to serve as a fall back position. The GA will have to be aware of that, if they thought that Galton was the end.

Frankly, it would smart if the Malign leadership did have another hidden system. Don't put all of your eggheads in one basket.

cthia wrote:I agree. IF you can put them down.

But that's the thing. You can't put down an entity that virtually lives in an anthill. You take out the hill in the BACK yard, fine. Couple of days later they show up in your FRONT yard.

You've got to find a way to extinguish the whole hive at once. You can feed them poison to take all through the hive. Pesticides. Translate that into destroying the MA by infiltrating them somehow, or turning one of their agents. But unless you are sure you are destroying the entire hive of fire ants, you ain't gonna be so happy when they light your ass on fire when you least expect it. You know what fire ants are like when you mess with their livelihood. They go all berserk on you, sacrificing themselves to completely destroy the enemy.

They have other hives. You have just one.

As I said, the whole point of Galton was to get the GA off MAlign's back so they could hide in the shadows for a couple of centuries while spreading their influence, and the above reasoning then means the book was totally unnecessary because the MAlign never intended to hide - which directly contravenes what is said in the book.

cthia wrote:You've got to find a way to extinguish the whole hive at once. You can feed them poison to take all through the hive. Pesticides. Translate that into destroying the MA by infiltrating them somehow, or turning one of their agents.

I agree with cthia here. And even if you could do all of that, there'll always be hold-overs. So what you need to do is drive their support away from them, so they are no more than the fringe lunatics that every society has created and will continue to create, but are essentially harmless. Remove the need that drove people to join the Alignment and believe their message by providing for the same need in other ways. That is, make it a commodity in the long run; that makes the Alignment's "product" require much more differentiation to attract so many to a risky cause.

And, lo and behold, that's exactly what I think is happening.

Evidence A is the Enlightenment: remove the official reason for the Alignment's existence from the shadows, give it legitimacy, and put it in the capable hands of non-sociopaths, that are accountable to the public at large. Let them drive the uplift of humanity, according to their wishes, without harming others. Let them also push the envelope of the ossified portions of Beowulf Life Sciences Code, so that provisions that no longer make sense are removed from the books.

Evidence B is the infiltration by a Fifth Column, though not of the GA's doing. That's just a column of dissidents who have come to realise that the Detweilers are BadGuys™. They're the ones working from the inside who can compromise information security and other plans, and eventually work in the GA's favour.

Note how three McBride siblings (one deceased) are at the centre of all of this. The surname McBride will be remembered as much as Harrington and Detweiler.

And Evidence C is removal of their financial support and operation network that allowed them to do a lot of harm.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I agree with cthia here. And even if you could do all of that, there'll always be hold-overs. So what you need to do is drive their support away from them, so they are no more than the fringe lunatics that every society has created and will continue to create, but are essentially harmless. Remove the need that drove people to join the Alignment and believe their message by providing for the same need in other ways. That is, make it a commodity in the long run; that makes the Alignment's "product" require much more differentiation to attract so many to a risky cause.

The current Mesan Alignment message is that we are superior beings; Nietzsche's "Supermen" created to guide and control normal beings. On Darius this is something something they will know from childhood, not something they learn about in college and decide "that sounds cool", and so join. Yes, there are people that are disillusioned; but there is no reason to suppose that they will be more successful than the Enlightenment was for all those centuries back on Mesa. Mainly they are people that came in direct contact with the seamier side of the Malign operations and that should not reoccur after the move to Darius. Besides they will not be able to help the Alliance unless they can open a communication channel.

In line with the lack of communication, there will be no way to realize that "the official reason for the Alignment's existence" is being removed. But that was the reason put forward by Leonard Detweiler and friends to initiate Mesa and Manpower and is not what currently goes by the name of the "Detweiler Plan" anyway.

As for removing their financial support; moving away from Mesa removes some of their operating expenses and they have the whole economy of the star system to finance their plans. Obviously the system is not mechanized as as fully as Galton, so initially they might have to concentrate their efforts on that; but they were going to lie low for a decade or two anyway.

PS: in terms of what the author might do, you are probably right that the internal opposition will be important. But I want to be surprised, so I will stick to doubting their effectiveness. Was it Shadow of Victory that introduced all those insurrections, that we did not understand (until the next book showed their point)?

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree. IF you can put them down.

But that's the thing. You can't put down an entity that virtually lives in an anthill. You take out the hill in the BACK yard, fine. Couple of days later they show up in your FRONT yard.

You've got to find a way to extinguish the whole hive at once. You can feed them poison to take all through the hive. Pesticides. Translate that into destroying the MA by infiltrating them somehow, or turning one of their agents. But unless you are sure you are destroying the entire hive of fire ants, you ain't gonna be so happy when they light your ass on fire when you least expect it. You know what fire ants are like when you mess with their livelihood. They go all berserk on you, sacrificing themselves to completely destroy the enemy.

They have other hives. You have just one.

As I said, the whole point of Galton was to get the GA off MAlign's back so they could hide in the shadows for a couple of centuries while spreading their influence, and the above reasoning then means the book was totally unnecessary because the MAlign never intended to hide - which directly contravenes what is said in the book.

The Malign's whole point of Galton was to get the GA off their back. That was never Galton's plan. Galton's inhabitants were simply pawns. Scapegoats.

As far as never meaning to hide, you are going to have to explain that a bit further. The MAlign came into existence hiding, they are still hiding, they will continue to hide until or if found. Hiding is the best strategy for system defense ever deployed in the HV. It is part of that whole "you can't hit what you can't see" defense.

NebulousAnswer wrote:I suppose I was thinking of this because a) they had just pulled off a hidden bomb attack in Beowulf and b) Honor encountered something similar in, IIRC, Silesia, where a local small-time dictator had emplaced nukes in cities all over his planet, and HH surprise-capped him with a .45. Good times.

In any event, I suppose you wouldn't even need a courier boat or message drone or some such - just a few deep cover operatives scattered throughout the galaxy with detonation codes. All they'd have to do is watch the news, and if they see a story that the GA has occupied Galton, boom.

Perhaps they're saving this tactic for the defense of Darius? And their lack of employing it will tip off Victor and co. that they need to keep digging?

I agree that they are saving the many kitchen sinks for Darius' defense. Ultimatums, Spider webs, Whales and Sharks.

Consider that this enemy was born a sore loser. Leonard Detweiler was the sorest of losers. You have got to be careful when dealing with a sore loser. You might destroy a sore loser in the end, but be careful that he does not take you with him, because he will abandon all reason to do so.

Especially when this sore loser has centuries of time, money, effort, plans and patience invested into it all.