Cupid

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I think you missed the first of a double post. If she inseminated herself with Stefan's sperm while he was alive, and had the child tubed, then the child was conceived while the father was alive.

Seemingly only true if the tubing was allowed to continue uninterrupted -- IOW completing in under 9 months from his death. (Not that Stefan is dead yet - just retired in seclusion after the destruction of his home and disappearance of his wife [or at least so says House of Steel])

Also as some point he'd presumably be able to get a divorce from his long missing wife -- assuming she wasn't declared presumed dead first. And after that point any child she conceives, unfreezes, etc. with him or his genetics wouldn't be a legitimate one; as they'd no longer be married.


So she'd have to sneak back into Manticore while still his wofe, without running afoul of the law or the Ballroom, get impregnated, arrange for Stefan to die, and then try to claim temporary control of the Earldom in the name of their child.

Seems unlikely to work. And definitely doesn't seem like the kind of story that RFC would write.

Somtaaw wrote:You also forgot updating Stefan's will to include the newly created child. Inheritance for non-nobility is basically a daily thing, you don't have anything special except to family and close friends. Nobility on the other hand, have to think in dynastic terms, so everything's gotta be in the will.

What cthia is suggesting is literally "date rape on steroids". If Georgia had drugged Stefan drugged and stole his sperm, she could conceive a child with his DNA and somehow that's legitimate even though Stefan has ZERO clue it happened, as long as it occurs prior to his death (or let's be honest, it would be a murder not passing away on his own).


Young noble males would need to be guarded more closely than the Queen (now Empress) of Manticore purely because as males, it's far simpler to drug and steal their sperm to impregnate a female to steal their title(s); that doing a similar thing to a young noble female could ever be.

What could you do steal an egg (or inject sperm) and then... what would you keep her imprisoned until she conceives? If you let her go free, within 2 months she'd know she was pregnant, guess what happened, and have the child terminated. If she's pro-life rather than pro-choice, she'd have that rape-baby tubed instead and then specifically declare it illegitimate and unable to inherit her title.


That's why my original comments pointed out, even though Manticore doesn't recognize bastardy and you'll always be able to claim such-and-such person as your father or mother, you certainly CAN be excluded from inheritance. Stefan must be aware of a child, and update his will of his own volition, for Georgia to try and sneak back into the North Hollow line. Every day that passes it becomes more and more difficult, because she's already been missing for 5 to 6 T-years so surely she must be presumed dead which nullifies any marriage state.

Somtaaw, I don't think a spouse can date rape his or her wife or husband. A man cannot legally rape his wife even now in many states. (sic) Many states consider it his marital right. It would also be her marital right. Anyhow, I think it would be a cold day in hell before a C-line sex-slave could be charged with having to rape a horny dog like a Young.

I wouldn't think a will is needed for a newly created legitimate child to inherit, or there would be lots of legitimate kids whose inheritance was stolen from then. Especially in cases where the mother/father was in the Navy and the conception was unknown and the noble father is killed in action before the mother even knew she was pregnant.

At any rate, I am not talking about Georgia becoming pregnant by nefarious means. Stefan gave her permission to use his sperm. In fact, it could turn out that she didn't need to "use his sperm" in that manner. She could have found out she was pregnant after she was driven out of town. She could have gotten pregnant the old-fashioned way.

A C-line sex-slave drops her robe dripping wet.



Jonathan, what do you mean not the kind of story RFC would write???

Exhibit A:

The married Earl of White Haven impregnates a naval officer out of wedlock. The understanding wife accepts the whole sordid mess and accepts a new wife.

Exhibit B:

Steadholder Harrington, a Grayson woman, sleeps with a noble woman's husband and gets herself pregnant.

What could be more risque than that? And if Georgia is pregnant by natural means, that is simply life. A much more wholesome version at that than what RFC wrote.

cthia wrote:I don't think a spouse can date rape his or her wife or husband. A man cannot legally rape his wife even now in many states. (sic) Many states consider it his marital right. It would also be her marital right.

That is wrong as a fact of law, however some state do treat it less severely, from Wikipedia:

In some states, courts have struck down the marital exemption as unconstitutional. In the 1984 New York Court of Appeals case of People v. Liberta, judge Sol Wachtler stated that "a marriage license should not be viewed as a license for a husband to forcibly rape his wife with impunity. A married woman has the same right to control her own body as does an unmarried woman". Similarly, in Alabama, the marital exemptions from the sodomy law (Williams v. State (1986)) and from the rape law (Merton v. State (1986)) were found unconstitutional.

By 1993, all states had withdrawn the marital rape exemptions, the last states to do so being Oklahoma and North Carolina (both in 1993) or the exemption had been declared judicially to be unconstitutional.

Though laws had changed in every state by 1993, in only 17 states was marital rape treated the same as non-marital rape. In the other states, there continued to be significant differences in the way marital rape and non-marital rape were treated, such as less severe penalties, or excluding situations where no violence is used, or shorter reporting periods

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't think a spouse can date rape his or her wife or husband. A man cannot legally rape his wife even now in many states. (sic) Many states consider it his marital right. It would also be her marital right.

That is wrong as a fact of law, however some state do treat it less severely, from Wikipedia:

In some states, courts have struck down the marital exemption as unconstitutional. In the 1984 New York Court of Appeals case of People v. Liberta, judge Sol Wachtler stated that "a marriage license should not be viewed as a license for a husband to forcibly rape his wife with impunity. A married woman has the same right to control her own body as does an unmarried woman". Similarly, in Alabama, the marital exemptions from the sodomy law (Williams v. State (1986)) and from the rape law (Merton v. State (1986)) were found unconstitutional.

By 1993, all states had withdrawn the marital rape exemptions, the last states to do so being Oklahoma and North Carolina (both in 1993) or the exemption had been declared judicially to be unconstitutional.

Though laws had changed in every state by 1993, in only 17 states was marital rape treated the same as non-marital rape. In the other states, there continued to be significant differences in the way marital rape and non-marital rape were treated, such as less severe penalties, or excluding situations where no violence is used, or shorter reporting periods

Yeah, it is getting better. I posted a link to that same thing at least several times in the forum. It is a pet peev of mine.

Take note of the last paragraph. The loophole. I know it well. A good friend of mine was raped by her husband. And they were separated, living apart.

Albeit, because the separation was not legal shouldn't have mattered. If the accused is only going to get off with a slap on the wrist, then what?

Also, proving rape in most of these cases is next to impossible if living together.

At any rate, you are right about the law. But just as the law that says slavery is illegal and black people are free is just an appeasement.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan, what do you mean not the kind of story RFC would write???

Exhibit A:

The married Earl of White Haven impregnates a naval officer out of wedlock. The understanding wife accepts the whole sordid mess and accepts a new wife.

Exhibit B:

Steadholder Harrington, a Grayson woman, sleeps with a noble woman's husband and gets herself pregnant.

What could be more risque than that? And if Georgia is pregnant by natural means, that is simply life. A much more wholesome version at that than what RFC wrote.

I didn't think he'd avoid it because it was risqué. Just that such a complicated scheme to use pregnancy and inheritance to try to temporarily place her hands back on some levels of power seemed not to be the kind of story RFC writes for the Honorverse.

The getting pregnant wasn't the part I though he'd have issue with.

(Though the having to kill off the husband at some point to try to get her hands on those levers of power is just a bit different than Honor and Hamish. Oh, and deliberately having a kid simply for cold calculating political gain -- rather than as a side effect of the parent's love... All kinds of ways your hypothetical scenario is different for theirs)

Frankly I'd be surprised if Georgia ever came back into the story

cthia wrote:Somtaaw, I don't think a spouse can date rape his or her wife or husband. A man cannot legally rape his wife even now in many states. (sic) Many states consider it his marital right. It would also be her marital right. Anyhow, I think it would be a cold day in hell before a C-line sex-slave could be charged with having to rape a horny dog like a Young.

I wouldn't think a will is needed for a newly created legitimate child to inherit, or there would be lots of legitimate kids whose inheritance was stolen from then. Especially in cases where the mother/father was in the Navy and the conception was unknown and the noble father is killed in action before the mother even knew she was pregnant.

Bolding here... LEGITIMATE FOR WHOM? If Stefan no longer wants a child (if he ever did) with Georgia, but she wants one that's pretty much game-set-match on the topic of children. If he doesn't agree to having a child, or isn't even aware, then even if conception happened before his death, it's still not his heir. As nobility, he has to knowingly agree to it, and be aware of it happening, and preferably so others can also be notified so in the event of sudden & abrupt death, his child could properly inherit

If Hamish had died prior to Honor coming back from Hades, then the White Haven title would have gone to his brother Willie, not to Emily who was still child-less at the time. Even if one of the courtesans it was mentioned he took to bed had come forward and suddenly claimed to be bearing his child, the title would still have gone to Willie because anybody who knew Hamish would know he hadn't consented to it, and wasn't aware of it and any children would not be his heirs. He took his duties seriously like that.

Not even Hamish's most bitter political enemies would have been in favor of allowing such a thing to happen, because they'd be terrified of someone doing it to them and their own titles later. Baron High Ridge, Earl Stefan Young of North Hollow, Marissa Turner the Countess of New Kiev, and similar examples LIVE for their titles. They would crap their drawers if someone tried to 'steal' their titles by using their genetic material for a child, because all of them are to our knowledge currently childless, and all of them think they're superior to the public purely for being born to their titles.

Look at what Honor did when she found out she was pregnant. The literal FIRST thing she did after leaving her Doctor was run straight to Hamish to talk it out and what they'd do about it. Not only because he should have input as the father, but because both of them take their duties seriously, both as nobility and serving officers, and a surprise pregnancy affects both of their lives, their reputations, their ability to continue serving in the military, AND how inheriting titles would require changes.

cthia wrote:At any rate, I am not talking about Georgia becoming pregnant by nefarious means. Stefan gave her permission to use his sperm. In fact, it could turn out that she didn't need to "use his sperm" in that manner.

Did he consent? There's no text evidence Stefan ever consented to children and their actions concurs with wanting to remain childless (for now). Stefan and Georgia got together shortly after Pavel died in 1905, and she was his wife until she had to blow up his house and vanish in 1920. 15 years and they never had a child or even hinted to each other about having one; despite Georgia clearly using sex to make Stefan do things she wanted him to do.

The current year is now 1926 give or take a few months, so she up and leaves him to think she's DEAD for at least 6 T-years? How many husbands do you know, that in 15 years of marriage (with no kid), and another 6 years thinking your wife is missing but probably dead, would immediately decide to go bareback in the magically reappeared wife and try knocking her up on the spot?

cthia wrote:She could have found out she was pregnant after she was driven out of town. She could have gotten pregnant the old-fashioned way.

He doesn't know she's pregnant before she BLOWS HIS HOUSE UP and vanishes, not one person who commented about him grieving his missing wife mentioned they knew that he was expecting a child too. If she casually comes back 6 years (or more) with a son or daughter (or twins) exactly as old as she's been missing (presumed dead) I don't think he'd react well. He didn't know he had those children, he may/may not have consented to those children, they'd be his biologically but that still don't make them his heirs because nobody ELSE knew about them either.

Nobility is a tricky thing, and they really REALLY don't like surprise pregnancies, their own or other nobility. That's partly why the Grayson Opposition tried to bar Honor's child Raoul from inheriting first by claiming illegitimacy, and that second they weren't informed as to who the father was. They were frustrated that Honor was following the law to the letter by only informing Benjamin Mayhew (as Protector) and the Church, and not the Spirit of the Law that said a confirmed pregnancy/fertilization of a Steadholder must also brief their fellow steadholders so they're all aware a new heir is coming.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:

Jonathan, what do you mean not the kind of story RFC would write???

Exhibit A:

The married Earl of White Haven impregnates a naval officer out of wedlock. The understanding wife accepts the whole sordid mess and accepts a new wife.

Exhibit B:

Steadholder Harrington, a Grayson woman, sleeps with a noble woman's husband and gets herself pregnant.

What could be more risque than that? And if Georgia is pregnant by natural means, that is simply life. A much more wholesome version at that than what RFC wrote.

I didn't think he'd avoid it because it was risqué. Just that such a complicated scheme to use pregnancy and inheritance to try to temporarily place her hands back on some levels of power seemed not to be the kind of story RFC writes for the Honorverse.

The getting pregnant wasn't the part I though he'd have issue with.

(Though the having to kill off the husband at some point to try to get her hands on those levers of power is just a bit different than Honor and Hamish. Oh, and deliberately having a kid simply for cold calculating political gain -- rather than as a side effect of the parent's love... All kinds of ways your hypothetical scenario is different for theirs)

Frankly I'd be surprised if Georgia ever came back into the story

Nobody is accepting the premise, which should be quite easy to do.

Georgia is NOT using pregnancy for cold-hearted political gain. She either uses Stefan's sperm as was permitted and instructed for her to do, OR, she realizes that she was pregnant after she is run out of town. Why shouldn't she seek justice for her rightful heirs (twins of Stefan's, yet another scenario) AND herself?


So? The author used a complicated scheme just to hitch Honor and Hamish. And to what end? Why did Honor need to become Hamish's and Emily's wife? It is just life. A woman finding out that she is unexpectedly pregnant is natural. Ask Honor.

Besides, why is it hard to believe that Stefan actually wanted an heir? He knows he is the last hope.

Late edit:

BTW, she didn't need to orchestrate Stefan's murder. That family orchestrated their own would be murderers. And there was an unexpected gap in security services.

BTW, another avenue to the title, if it reverts back to the Crown, is that Beth can bestow it to someone at her discretion. That someone does not have to be related in any form or fashion to the family. But, if it suits Beth politically or otherwise, Georgia would certainly qualify.

cthia wrote:BTW, another avenue to the title, if it reverts back to the Crown, is that Beth can bestow it to someone at her discretion. That someone does not have to be related in any form or fashion to the family. But, if it suits Beth politically or otherwise, Georgia would certainly qualify.

Given the Queen's attitude toward the High Ridge government, I think this suggestion is even less likely than Georgia and Jeremy united by Cupid. And it continues to ignore Georgia's legal problem (and I say legal problem; because if she does not stand trial on Torch, then she is just a moving target for the Ballroom).

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:BTW, another avenue to the title, if it reverts back to the Crown, is that Beth can bestow it to someone at her discretion. That someone does not have to be related in any form or fashion to the family. But, if it suits Beth politically or otherwise, Georgia would certainly qualify.

Given the Queen's attitude toward the High Ridge government, I think this suggestion is even less likely than Georgia and Jeremy united by Cupid. And it continues to ignore Georgia's legal problem (and I say legal problem; because if she does not stand trial on Torch, then she is just a moving target for the Ballroom).

There is NO way the Ballroom would carry out the assassination of the only parent of rightful heirs to the Earldom. That would surely be a galactic scandal and it would cause major tension between Torch and Manticore.

Assassination of Manticoran peerage would be a major misstep for the Ballroom, and Torch.

I would still very much like to hear Georgia's testimony about everything. It could turn out to be that she was actually saving that freighter from a much worse fate that we are not privy to.

The so called murders she committed could have been MAlign agents. And for all we really know, Georgia could have been forced to take that deal.

And what does the High Ridge government have to do with anything? Heck, that is a surefire way to throw mud in its eye.

"There will come a time that you will rue this day," says Beth. Guess what time it is.

tlb wrote:I think this suggestion is even less likely than Georgia and Jeremy united by Cupid.

Why is that? Do you seriously doubt the power of love?

Besides, didn't we all think Harahap was a sorry SOB as well? And then a treecat saw into his soul. Saw the real truth hidden deep inside that we were not privy to. And, voila, Cat love.

cthia wrote:There is NO way the Ballroom would carry out the assassination of the only parent of rightful heirs to the Earldom. That would surely be a galactic scandal and it would cause major tension between Torch and Manticore.

Assassination of Manticoran peerage would be a major misstep for the Ballroom, and Torch.

Georgia is NOT now and never was a rightful heir to the Earldom. She is NOT a peer, she is instead just the former wife of a peer. It is doubtful that your invented children are the rightful heirs either, since their existence is unlikely to be recognized.

Torch is only affected if they can put her on trial; otherwise they are not involved in her probable execution at the hands on the Ballroom. The Ballroom is not a monolithic organization, there will always be independent actors and splinter groups to act if they see her walking free.

The High Ridge government was mentioned with regard to your ludicrous suggestion that the Queen would give her the Earldom of North Hollow. It would instead revert to the throne; Manticore has enough new nobles from San Martin, they certainly do not need to keep North Hollow around.

It could turn out to be that she was actually saving that freighter from a much worse fate

They thought that they had escaped and she sold them back to Manpower; that does not sound anywhere close to "saving" them.

for all we really know, Georgia could have been forced to take that deal.

If Manpower was forcing her, then why did they give her all that money? Indeed, why didn't they force her back into slavery?