Masada: State of Affairs

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:So while Elder Simons got himself real dead it's unclear if the "quarter of the church elders" include any of the rest of their Council of Elders.

Thanks for the text. It does say though that all the leaders in the church are removed from their position of influence, either because they're in hiding, because they've been murdered, or because they're in protective custody.

However, it does say that most of the population was either made up of true believers or those too traumatised to take action.

But the occupation has been going for 20 years now. It's a full generation that hasn't grown up with the oppression.

But there's some evidence from history that you might need to get maybe 3 generations, 60 years, growing up without that oppression before the societal change has really solidly taken hold to the point where 'hardliners', whatever that might mean for that society, don't revert things by force the moment they can.

(See how quickly Afghanistan's government fell after 20 years of relative lack of oppression)

Though that timeline is likely affected by how bought in the general population is to the new government and society -- and there are all kinds of factors that influence that.

Jonathan_S wrote:So while Elder Simons got himself real dead it's unclear if the "quarter of the church elders" include any of the rest of their Council of Elders.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Thanks for the text. It does say though that all the leaders in the church are removed from their position of influence, either because they're in hiding, because they've been murdered, or because they're in protective custody.

However, it does say that most of the population was either made up of true believers or those too traumatised to take action.

But the occupation has been going for 20 years now. It's a full generation that hasn't grown up with the oppression.

There was a "Masadan Spring" movement as the result of the occupation, but what is the current situation? A new Council of Elders could well be in place, unless the Manticoran Army put enough boots on the ground to implement some of the steps to societal change that were listed earlier. The events of The Honor of the Queen were in 1903; as of Ashes of Victory in 1915 and Crown of Slaves in 1919 there were still Masadan fanatics loose in the galaxy.

Unless there are enough boots on the ground, you have no justification for saying there is a "full generation that hasn't grown up with the oppression".

I am working with a new computer and do not have the lookup materials at this point. Are the bulk of the "occupying" force on the ground or in orbitals? Even if on the ground, are there enough to enforce change?

PS: at least the hard-liners will not use prolong.

I’ll point out that the 9/11 planners were western university educated engineers and architects.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Is it all Masadans? Or just the Council of Elders and their immediate male family members?

They'd have indoctrinated all male youth of course, but that doesn't mean those are true believers. Show them a better future with the Galaxy and they may change. Show that their hated enemies the Graysons are reaping the benefits. Or simply remove the indoctrinational propagandist education system and society will slowly drift towards a more open one.

Also, teach the women. They're at least half the population and their opinions didn't count. They owe no allegiance to the Elders and they would likely want nothing more than to take the position opposite than the Elders had, for simply being opposite. And they've never been indoctrinated in the first place, so they're kind of a blank slate.

The two main points being that the population of Masada is not homogeneously zealot against the heathens, and that such zealotry usually requires charismatic leaders and/or the threat of punishment.

ALL Masadans feel that way against the heathens.

Remember, even the whole of Grayson was not fully open to cavorting with sinners in the beginning, and even some of the Keys continue to secretly oppose the seeds the Protector has sown.

But do not fool yourself, Masada is different. They are extremists, and their total indoctrination is complete, total. There is nothing that anyone can teach the women. The women were not rebelling against the doctrine, they were rebelling against their mean husbands. There is a very big difference. The women of Masada do not wish to have more power in the church. To them that would be blasphemy. They accept their place in the Church, just like many people -- women included -- agree and accept that women have no right in the pulpit even today.

New generation of kids are fully indoctrinated as a matter of principle. It is the parent's obligation.

As far as new Elders, the congregation decides on that, and they will not accept someone who does not adhere to the same teachings and principles. It is simply that certain Elders went too far. Even some of Grayson's husband weren't exactly nice to their wives at one point. And some of Grayson's husbands could have done a bit better when Honor landed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:So while Elder Simons got himself real dead it's unclear if the "quarter of the church elders" include any of the rest of their Council of Elders.

Thanks for the text. It does say though that all the leaders in the church are removed from their position of influence, either because they're in hiding, because they've been murdered, or because they're in protective custody.

However, it does say that most of the population was either made up of true believers or those too traumatised to take action.

But the occupation has been going for 20 years now. It's a full generation that hasn't grown up with the oppression.

Jonathan_S wrote:But there's some evidence from history that you might need to get maybe 3 generations, 60 years, growing up without that oppression before the societal change has really solidly taken hold to the point where 'hardliners', whatever that might mean for that society, don't revert things by force the moment they can.

(See how quickly Afghanistan's government fell after 20 years of relative lack of oppression)

Though that timeline is likely affected by how bought in the general population is to the new government and society -- and there are all kinds of factors that influence that.

First off, rid yourself of that notion of "oppression." The Lord does not oppress. I don't think Queen Elizabeth would be in the business of trying to influence someones religion, rather than their foreign policy.

But if Manticorans go around telling the Faithful that their religion is oppressive, that is a sure-fire way to start a riot. That would be worse than calling a woman a whore in public on Grayson. Run for your life!

Jonathan_S wrote:So while Elder Simons got himself real dead it's unclear if the "quarter of the church elders" include any of the rest of their Council of Elders.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Thanks for the text. It does say though that all the leaders in the church are removed from their position of influence, either because they're in hiding, because they've been murdered, or because they're in protective custody.

However, it does say that most of the population was either made up of true believers or those too traumatised to take action.

But the occupation has been going for 20 years now. It's a full generation that hasn't grown up with the oppression.

Jonathan_S wrote:But there's some evidence from history that you might need to get maybe 3 generations, 60 years, growing up without that oppression before the societal change has really solidly taken hold to the point where 'hardliners', whatever that might mean for that society, don't revert things by force the moment they can.

(See how quickly Afghanistan's government fell after 20 years of relative lack of oppression)

Though that timeline is likely affected by how bought in the general population is to the new government and society -- and there are all kinds of factors that influence that.

cthia wrote:First off, rid yourself of that notion of "oppression." The Lord does not oppress. I don't think Queen Elizabeth would be in the business of trying to influence someone's religion, rather than their foreign policy.

But if Manticorans go around telling the Faithful that their religion is oppressive, that is a sure-fire way to start a riot. That would be worse than calling a woman a whore in public on Grayson. Run for your life!

That is not how "oppression" is being discussed. Perhaps the Lord does not oppress, but it is a certainty that people in authority can and do. Manticore is not going to tell people that their religion is oppressive. However ThinksMarkedly and Jonathan_S were hoping that through equal education the general Masadan would realize that their former leaders had been oppressing them all through a narrow interpretation of Austin's teachings. After all Masada has not rejected all technology as their religion would seem to insist; they are busy using space ships and genetic sniffers and the many other benefits that technology provides. So where in the teachings is technology divided into good or bad. In effect, present day Masada is living with technology in ways that their ancestors rejected at the time of the Schism.

I will point out that sati was along religious tradition was pretty much stopped by the British. So you don’t have to accept everything.

“Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs” (Napier 35)

kzt wrote:I will point out that sati was along religious tradition was pretty much stopped by the British. So you don’t have to accept everything.

“Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs” (Napier 35)

Damn straight! And that is the way it should be. Chivalry should never die.

But how far does Masadan religion allow a man to go in his affairs with his wife?

Wiki wrote:
Masadan women were required to wear a veil in their own homes when visitors were present, and to wear a veil at all times when they leave their homes. They were regarded as inherently and irredeemably sinful and wicked. No education was permitted, and it was a capital offense for a woman to learn to read or write. There were no strictures against any action a man might take regarding his women, so the crime of physical or mental abuse by those close to one was not present in Masadan law -- if the victim was female. No woman was permitted to exercise any power over others at all, save over children during infancy.

After the conquest and occupation of Masada by Manticore, women were undoubtedly granted considerably more rights than they had previously enjoyed. While most had no use for this, since they believed the Masadan Church's teachings, many of them took the opportunity to execute revenge against their oppressive spouses.

I do believe as many of you undoubtedly do that the women are oppressed, but as tlb stated, by some of the husbands and not by Tester. Although, I wonder what is actually contained in the text. Women are inherently sinful??? They are not allowed to learn to read or write? But is it Manticore's place to try and change that?

At any rate, the planet has to come to terms with certain things on its own, and I suspect with the rebelling of some of the wives that chapter is already being written.

But a formal education being taught by the Manticorans would be walking on thin ice. Controversial teachings coming from heathens can only cause trouble, and get a lot of Masadan people killed.

Who gave the women more rights? Manticore?

Late edit:

I forgot to summarize this post accordingly. As long as the women do not think they're oppressed, then they are not. That would be blasphemy, and no woman wants to go to hell, or whatever Masadans fate is in the end.

cthia wrote:I do believe as many of you undoubtedly do that the women are oppressed, but as tlb stated, by the men and not by Tester. Although, I wonder what is actually contained in the text. Women are inherently sinful??? They are not allowed to learn to read or write? But is it Manticore's place to try and change that?

At any rate, the planet has to come to terms with certain things on its own, and I suspect with the rebelling of some of the wives that chapter is already being written.

But a formal education being taught by the Manticorans would be walking on thin ice. Controversial teachings coming from heathens can only cause trouble, and get a lot of Masadan people killed.

Who gave the women more rights? Manticore?

If I remember correctly, the problem with women only got really bad in the civil war when the Faithful were betrayed.

Whether or not Manticore will try to change things, I am not sure that they have enough people to force things through. The rebelling of women may only have been a blip as the result of military defeat, there is no guarantee that improvements will follow.

The thing I find interesting is that Masada is using technology and has been doing so since the civil war. So the basis for the Schism has fallen to hypocrisy and they are no better than the Graysons that they hate. However I do not know how successful it would be to point that out.

As for a lot of Masadan people getting killed; as someone said about a different human tragedy: "So what?".

cthia wrote:I forgot to summarize this post accordingly. As long as the women do not think they're oppressed, then they are not. That would be blasphemy, and no woman wants to go to hell, or whatever Masadans fate is in the end.

Agreed, and not just women. From my point of view, all except the church leaders and a handful of others were oppressed. But my opinion is not theirs and as you said, if they don't think they were oppressed, they may find little reason to change their culture, despite any incentives offered by the technology and education now possible with Manticore.

I was hoping that over 50% of the population would have felt oppressed, which is probably enough to effect change in less than a generation. If only 5% feels that way, it will take much longer.

The other point I raised is envy of Grayson. Those went from "poster child of neobarbarian who nearly lost a war to an even newer neobarbarian" to superpower in 15 years. There's no way that a Masadan army or navy could do anything to Grayson any more; at best, they could still perform terrorism acts and maybe create a fifth column again, but unlike their population, Grayson's has been educated and will fall for that less and less. If the Masadan hardliners still want to take over Grayson ("this planet is God's"), they need a full generation of their sons studying the technical careers that can only be found in Grayson or Manticore. And that can have consequences.