Cupid

tlb wrote:PS: I am reminded that whatever serial number that is assigned by the Long-Range Planning Board, it has to include a generation number at the end for situations like the culling of 2 generations from the Bardasano line.

Not necessarily.

In fact, they could assign a random UUID like c267be31-911c-466b-8b5d-260c18068600 and simply look it up in a database. There's no need for information to need to become public aside from anything you'd want the customers to be able to verify. They may want to verify that the slave is of a given line and of a recent enough "vintage," but the specific traits that Manpower used don't have to.

The Star Lines don't have a barcode, but I'm sure they're still tracked in this database.

At what point do you consider that the Alignment would move beyond only putting that tongue code on the products of, not only the Manpower, but also Alignment production of indivuals?

Sure the tongue marker would identify slaves but the Alignment seems too fixed on maintaining control to do something like send out agents without being able to identify their own.

What it they stuck a coding sequence (hard wired genetically to be passed along through even sexual reproduction like Honor's Myherdal modifications (spelling)) into the DNA of everybody they decanted. All of the Star Lines seem to be grown in artificial wombs and in many of the systems we have seen, there is genetic screening and or genetic cleaning to remove various gene related diseases and abnormalities.

You could put it into what is sometimes referred as the "junk" sequences of a particular chromosome - what appears to be essentially random genetic "noise" with no effect or impact on any identified function. Picking up DNA coding for the equivalent of an Alpha Numeric model & serial number in a white noise segment of one chromosome is going to be massively difficult as you are going to have to be looking at two closely (genetically) related individuals and notice something that shouldn't have any particular reason to be the same of .999% the same in "noise".

Now that would also be a potential problem of identification for the Alignment but very very low risk.

tlb wrote:PS: I am reminded that whatever serial number that is assigned by the Long-Range Planning Board, it has to include a generation number at the end for situations like the culling of 2 generations from the Bardasano line.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not necessarily.

In fact, they could assign a random UUID like c267be31-911c-466b-8b5d-260c18068600 and simply look it up in a database. There's no need for information to need to become public aside from anything you'd want the customers to be able to verify. They may want to verify that the slave is of a given line and of a recent enough "vintage," but the specific traits that Manpower used don't have to.

The Star Lines don't have a barcode, but I'm sure they're still tracked in this database.

Basically I am saying that the genetic serial number (and revision) is NOT visible to the public; it is for internal use only by the Long-Range Planning Board. Because of that, I see no reason get as fancy as you propose.

All the customer needs to know is the product identifier and batch number and number within the batch (I consider the total number of units within the batch to be unnecessary, except for marketing: sort of like limited edition prints that show the number and the total).

Brigade XO wrote:At what point do you consider that the Alignment would move beyond only putting that tongue code on the products of, not only the Manpower, but also Alignment production of indivuals?

Sure the tongue marker would identify slaves but the Alignment seems too fixed on maintaining control to do something like send out agents without being able to identify their own.

What it they stuck a coding sequence (hard wired genetically to be passed along through even sexual reproduction like Honor's Myherdal modifications (spelling)) into the DNA of everybody they decanted. All of the Star Lines seem to be grown in artificial wombs and in many of the systems we have seen, there is genetic screening and or genetic cleaning to remove various gene related diseases and abnormalities.

You could put it into what is sometimes referred as the "junk" sequences of a particular chromosome - what appears to be essentially random genetic "noise" with no effect or impact on any identified function. Picking up DNA coding for the equivalent of an Alpha Numeric model & serial number in a white noise segment of one chromosome is going to be massively difficult as you are going to have to be looking at two closely (genetically) related individuals and notice something that shouldn't have any particular reason to be the same of .999% the same in "noise".

Now that would also be a potential problem of identification for the Alignment but very very low risk.

Do we have a firm answer to the question of who wins when two individuals with locked genes try to have children? I can see some possibilities:

1) Interference means they cannot have children.
2) Both locks get passed, for example a Ukrainian super-soldier with a Meyerdahl-B person results in a child with the external physique and facial characteristics of the soldier, but with the muscles and bones for heavy gravity.
3) One lock manages to disable the other.

In the case proposed, the result might just be additional garbage on the gene by shuffling the codes together, that cannot be interpreted.

tlb wrote:Although we only see it applied to men, ugly is not extinct. The passage with Helen and Paulo points to the fact that bio-sculpting can do anything than gene editing can do. Specifically you have no evidence that bio-sculpting is as limited as you say it is.

As I said, some things are implied. However, in this case, we also have textev to accompany said implication. See below.*

Jonathan_S wrote:And we know, from Elaine/Georgia that biosculpt can include gene modifications; because of this line "I found your first biosculpt technician," Zilwicki told her very, very softly. "The one who rekeyed the genetic sequence on your tongue."" (And Anton is usually very precise; if he said "first biosculpt technician" that almost certainly means he'd found that she'd used at least one more (no reason to say "first" if there isn't at least a "second)

Let me reiterate that rekeying the genetic marker for the tongue should be child's play. It probably isn't embedded deeply into the gene sequence, and it certainly does not cross the line drawn by the Beowulf Code. IMO.

Jonathan_S wrote:Also, there's this line in FoD, when Sakristos "her lovely face (the best biosculpt money could buy)" is thinking about how she how she arranged Pavil hiring the duelest Denver. So we don't have to speculate that (some of?) her beauty came from biosculpt rather than genetics.

Um... I was never speculating. I am certain. Her "stunning beauty" came from divine intervention. The god is the MA.

Her plain old common everyday beauty came from biosculpting. She had to change her appearance. She may have gotten a nose job. That is the one thing that will change ones appearance quite a bit. You cannot improve upon perfection, you can change it, but not improve upon it.

When she arrived at the biosculptor's office she was bringing quite a bit for him to work with. The biosculptor in this case was probably perplexed. I imagine the conversation went a little along these lines.

"I can't improve upon this!"

"I just need you to make me more anonymous. This face sticks out like a sore thumb."

"That I can do, if you are sure. You won't be so drop dead gorgeous though. You sure about this?"

Again, Michael Jackson could afford the best surgeon money could buy, yet he ended up looking alien, almost hideous. His was a botched job.

Jonathan_S wrote:Now, what biosculpt can't do is adjust skeletal structure (height, etc.). However nanotech body transformation can change even that. (See Berry and Ruth in CoS).


So, taken together, it seems that if you've got the money and the desire (and access to a first world medical establishment) you can change most anything; from your skeletal structure, to your looks, to retro-gene therapy to alter/rekey your original genetics (not sure what the limits on that last are)

This passage proves what I suggested upstream that nanites are in common use throughout the galaxy. The MA simply injected the critters with steroids and let them loose upon the galaxy. But I digress.

Now for that proof I promised. Contained in this passage supplied by tlb himself.

tlb wrote:I would have been inclined to consider nanotech transformation as part of bioscutpt, but as you say there is this passage in Crown of Slaves, chapter 2:

*

Queen Elizabeth chuckled. "A nanotech transformation? You're certainly free with the royal purse, Captain Zilwicki!"

Anton made no reply beyond a thin smile. That seemed like a better response than: sure, it'll cost a small fortune—but for you, that's pocket change.
Elizabeth studied the two girls herself. She seemed a bit uncertain, although Anton was quite sure the hesitation was not because of the expense involved. Biosculpt would have been cheaper, but biosculpt was—literally—only skin deep, and they needed more than that in this case. Although Berry and Ruth were very similar physical types, aside from Berry's dark brown hair and Ruth's golden blond, they weren't quite the same height. And while neither of them would ever be called stocky, Ruth was noticeably finer-boned than Berry. It wasn't anything which would be hugely apparent to a casual observer, but it would show up instantly if anyone decided to run a side-by-side comparison of their HD images.

Unless, of course, the differences were reversed before the HD cameras ever saw them.

So, there is a very distinct limitation of what can be accomplished with biosculpting. Biosculpting is no more than cosmetic surgery. Today it is limited by the possible need and availability of skin grafts which are usually taken from other areas of the body. The buttocks, thighs, stomach, etc.

Oftentimes simple bone restructuring is needed but that may require another completely different specialist. A specialist who is paid the biggest of the big bucks. That is why nanite transformations cost as much as a Queen's ramsom. I also suspect different specialists are needed. I wouldn't be surprised if the average biosculptor is not licensed to practice gene therapy or nanotech transformation. But a gene therapist can probably do it all. All of this gels with a post I made upstream about bone restructuring.

So, in summary, there is a very real limitation of what biosculpting can do. I will go out on a limb and say there is an implied limitation of what nanotech transformation can do as well.

What is that limitation? I'm glad you asked. The limitation is that neither can reproduce what God, or the MA can do.

If they could, there would be a lot of Honor Harrington twins, and a lot of Queen Elizabeths -- etc., etc., etc., -- running around the Galaxy impostering their way into a galactic mess. The MA would have changed the appearance of Harahap himself to look exactly like who he was impostering.

Tlb, I would imagine that nanotech transformation and biosculting is two very different professions requiring very different qualifications. Even today, if someone gets into a serious injury and needs serious reconstructive surgery he needs several specialists. Cosmetic surgeon, bone surgeon, suture specialist... if one wants to get the best results.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But the primary reason I think it's extremely unlikely that the rest of the alphabet would (all) represent culled lines is that Eric Flint never represented the ones we have as anything like a comprehensive list. It wasn't presented as a list at all -- simply we've met, spread mostly through Eric's stories and books (those a couple in David's) a bare handful of former slaves where their line has happened to be mentioned.

Seriously, the only reason we can compile a list is because of 7 people:
Virginia 'Ginny' Usher (C-17a/65-4/5) - C-line
Timothy Zeiger (D-17d-2547-2/5) - D-line
(E-line was mentioned as another general purpose line when we met Zeiger)
Donald X (F-67d-8455-2/5) and Hugh Arai (F-23xb-74421-4/5) - F-line
W.E.B. Du Havel (J-16b-79-2/3) - J-line
Jeremy X (K-86b/273-1/5) - K-line
Isaac Douglass (V-44e-684-3/5) - V-line

It seems insane to me to assume that an almost random sampling of 7 people just happened to present us with every active genetic line Manpower has.

cthia wrote:True, I agree. But it does highlight some of the terrain. And if you view it with the characteristics of a periodic table, certain categories would tend to clump together, and certain other categories would be out of place.

Do note that these configurations are within the "production run" and "job lots" of slaves only.

I certainly cannot see Alphas, Betas and Gamma's found between the lines of sex slaves and the general utility lines.

And C-line sex slave are implied to be only one variant of sex slave. They are probably the most expensive and the most difficult to engineer. Where are the generic sex slaves. What happened to A-line and B-line sex slaves?

I think it might be more productive to think of the first few characters before the batch number as catalog codes. Only the "C" model is a sex slave (not "A" nor "B") and Ginny was a "17a" variant; just as Jeremy was a "86b" variant of the basic "K" model. There is no reason (in my limited view) to include the actual genetic code in the catalog specification, since the basic genetic makeup of a household servant can change over the centuries, but there is no need for the catalog number to also vary as wildly. It has been pointed out that this coding is ridiculously inadequate for describing the genetics of a multi-century biology factory.

Alphas, Betas and Gammas are not being sold, so would not need a catalog model number.

You are misrepresenting it tlb ...

Jeremy had come into the universe in one of Manpower Inc.'s breeding chambers on Mesa. K-86b/273-1/5, they had called him.

The "K" referred to the basic genetic type-in Jeremy's case, someone bred to be a personal servant,

just as Isaac's "V" denoted one of the technical combat breeds.

The "-86b" referred to one of the multitude of slight variants within the general archetype. In Jeremy's case, the variant designed to provide clients with acrobatic entertainment-jugglers and the like. Court clowns, in essence.

Jeremy is specifically from the K-line.

Within a specific line there can be variants. As Jeremy is a juggler variant.

But, within each line the main characteristics (traits) of that line are carried on through the line; the main traits permeate on down the line.

Therefore, all C-line sex slaves have the basic traits of a C-line sex slave permeating ALL of the variants if it is to be characterized and sold as a C-line sex slave.

Because what makes a sex slave a C-line sex slave is the increased libidinal energy, etc., and the phenotype development at age nine.

If not, then it would be like marketing a Mustang 5.0 without the V-8 (Vrrrrr Vrrr Vrrr Vrooom!!!)

Variants comprise the minor, lesser changes, not the main qualifications of the line. The accoutrements. Jeremy is simply born with some juggler's equipment. Some balls.

Which brings me right back to the fact that there must be other lines for general purpose sex slaves.

cthia wrote:Let me reiterate that rekeying the genetic marker for the tongue should be child's play. It probably isn't embedded deeply into the gene sequence, and it certainly does not cross the line drawn by the Beowulf Code.

Not at all child's play; from Torch of Freedom, chapter 25:

"There's no way known for that kind of genetic tongue-marker to be faked cosmetically," he said, his voice flat and hard. "Not against the kind of scanning we do, at least. There's no way to remove it that isn't both difficult and damned expensive—Manpower made sure of that, the bastards—and the thing will grow back even if you simply amputate the tongue and use regen to grow it back again. Trust me, we've already determined that both the codes in this instance are as genuine as genuine can be. Duplicates, yes; fakes, no."

It is part of the genetic code and is grown into place as part of the prenatal development. So what does it mean to say that it "probably isn't embedded deeply into the gene sequence"?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Let me reiterate that rekeying the genetic marker for the tongue should be child's play. It probably isn't embedded deeply into the gene sequence, and it certainly does not cross the line drawn by the Beowulf Code.

Not at all child's play; from Torch of Freedom, chapter 25:

"There's no way known for that kind of genetic tongue-marker to be faked cosmetically," he said, his voice flat and hard. "Not against the kind of scanning we do, at least. There's no way to remove it that isn't both difficult and damned expensive—Manpower made sure of that, the bastards—and the thing will grow back even if you simply amputate the tongue and use regen to grow it back again. Trust me, we've already determined that both the codes in this instance are as genuine as genuine can be. Duplicates, yes; fakes, no."

It is part of the genetic code and is grown into place as part of the prenatal development. So what does it mean to say that it "probably isn't embedded deeply into the gene sequence"?

Well, none of it is probably child's play, not literally. I meant in comparison to deeply embedded modifications like gene transformations and the like.

I didn't think the tongue marker requires crossing the line drawn by the Beowulf Code. Though I could be wrong. At any rate, it is now clear that the tongue marker is not an aftermarket alteration if it just grows back after you amputate the tongue and use regen to grow it back.

Which brings me to another question. Will the medical community at large become privy to the MA's deplorable genetic tactics when they begin offering medical services to the escaped slaves?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I do. I bring a lot of baggage into the forum, as I noticed most other posters do as well. In particular, the entirety of our professional experiences. If I didn't know any better, and I don't, I would tend to think nobody here has ever worked in production, particularly on an assembly line making all manner of parts. The highest paying jobs in this field put you closer to the realities of the process. A position of at least supervisor of the "line" affords more knowledge of the operation. A Quality Check (QC) position is even better. And an extraction mold technician, a mold maker, a line technician who is responsible for repairing the machinery, and a software analyst for troubleshooting the computers are all the most familiar with the operation.

And these people have often heard the phrase, STOP THE PRESS!

Very serious problems will result in the line being completely shut down. And every single object that came off the line has to be discarded because of serious defects. Oftentimes a "production run" will never be attempted again because of some unsolvable problem. Some runs were meant to be limited production runs anyway, and were assuming risks with new materials and untried techniques.

In our example, if a line shows unacceptable results early on, that line will be culled. I imagine it happened quite a bit.

I think you're putting too my emphasis on "line." You've equated a genetic line with a production line and "stop the press" to stop it when a big defect is found.

I don't understand your statement at all. We are discussing "lines" in general. And "culled lines" specifically. How am I putting too much emphasis on lines when everything about the MA has always been contained in a line? Lines are almost like the MA's most basic atomic structure.

Yes, I am pointing out the obvious callousness and emotional detachment of the MA. I have always done so. Their operation is likened unto an assembly line because that is exactly what it is. They are reproducing humans like livestock on an assembly line. The reality of it is sickening, I agree. But true. I have been picketing the MA and screaming about certain truths since I met them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But instead of thinking of just stopping a production line,

That is exactly what will happen if the babies are born with obvious defects like one or more extra extremities like heads, arms, feet, legs. Or born with undeveloped or defective brains (I imagine scans are employed to readily detect the more obvious defects. Like how a constant sampling of the parts are taken and scanned on a present day assembly line). Again, the MA was literally playing with fire early on, and lots of things undoubtedly went wrong with the very first forays into the unknown.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:add it as recalling all previous products in the market AND halting research and development on the next iterations. That doesn't happen overnight.

So true! In some cases. See above for the other more obvious cases. But that simply points to the inevitable adoption of some of the more appalling and sinister tactics of carrying out "abortions" way beyond the first trimester. LOL

Each line is a complete departure from all other lines, for the most part. It is the first of that attempt. The first attempts are always the guinea pigs by nature. If the C-line sex slaves began to show debilitating effects by age 5, or 15, or 21 ... then that entire line might be culled. What if the defect is in her vaginal area that causes them to commit suicide. Or homicide. I am talking about true clinical hysteria! Genetically modified and engendered hysteria!* Then they will be culled.

*There is an episode of 1000 Ways to Die #268 about a woman with PGAD, Persistent Genital Arousal Disorder.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:A product may become extinct if its market disappears or is replaced by a different, better product (for some definition of "better" - see The Innovator's Dilemma and The Innovator's Solution by Clayton Christensen), but usually not for a flaw found in a current iteration of the problem.

There would be no need for the MA to worry about their market becoming extinct. They have no competition. Their worry would be more along the lines of losing the trust of their buyers if they were to introduce products with serious genetic defects, both physically and emotionally. "This house servant is totally phucking crazy! I am talking a real looney tune!!"

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You've even posted the proof to that in the Bardasano section:

At one point the Mesan Alignment was tempted to cull the line's last several iterations, and restart development from a much earlier genotype.

They would cull several iterations, but restart the "line" from an earlier version that was known to be unaffected by the flaw.

Her case is why I posted it. Note, it took six generations before her defect began to manifest itself. Consider that their decision to only prune two generations could prove to be a mistake. By mistake I mean fatal. She was useful, and IIRC, it had been bandied about to cull the entire line!

Another question I've had about the Bardasano gene is that if it took six generations for it to manifest itself, then how did that trait escape being passed up the food chain? She is in the Alpha line.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:So of the letters we don't know, it's possible some have ceased being used: the "product" no longer has a marketplace. But I don't think we can assume that's the case for all the letters in the alphabet that we've never seen used. It's like saying that you've only seen suitcases in black and silver, therefore suitcases only exist in these two tones.

Yet, there were entire lines culled so says textev.

If production is about to start and within the slave lines there are several lines scheduled for production, A-V ...

What happens to the line and its placeholder (letter designation) if that line is culled?

At any rate, make no bones about it. The MA's operation is as callous as an assembly line producing parts. It is a Frankenstein lab on a grand scale containing assembly lines producing a variety of different Frankies and Frankcescas.

Also note that the slave lines seem to be lines within lines. Matryoshka dolls. I wonder if that possibly racist distinction is present within the Alpha Line. IOW, do the Detweilers have modifications pertaining only to them?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:So of the letters we don't know, it's possible some have ceased being used: the "product" no longer has a marketplace. But I don't think we can assume that's the case for all the letters in the alphabet that we've never seen used. It's like saying that you've only seen suitcases in black and silver, therefore suitcases only exist in these two tones.

cthia wrote:Yet, there were entire lines culled so says textev.

If production is about to start and within the slave lines there are several lines scheduled for production, A-V.

What happens to the line and it's placeholder (letter designation) if that line is culled?

Over the centuries that Manpower has been operating, there have been bound to be many, many genetic lines that have ended; which why we think that 26 letters are inadequate to describe them, even with variations. But 26 letters and variations are fine to describe product descriptions. Torch of Freedom, chapter 9:

The moment any slaver's eyes caught sight of Hugh Arai, they wanted to see his tongue sticking out. The man was huge and so muscular he looked downright misshapen. There was no way they were going to let him near them, no matter how many chains he was laden with, until they saw the Manpower genetic marker. Even from a bit of a distance, that marker was effectively impossible to disguise or mimic.
Arai stretched. The small command deck seemed to get even smaller. He smiled at his comrades and, lazily, stuck out his tongue.
There was no need to fake a Manpower genetic marker. It was right there on the top of his tongue, as it had been since he came out of the Manpower process that substituted for birth.
F-23xb-74421-4/5.
"F" indicated the heavy labor line. "23" was the particular type, which was one designed for extremely heavy labor. "xb" instead of the usual "b" or "d" for a male slave indicated an experimental variety—in this case a genetic manipulation aimed to produce unusual dexterity along with enormous strength. "74421" indicated the batch, and "4/5" noted that Hugh had been the fourth of five male babies "born" at the same time.

There will always be a need for an "extremely heavy labor" line, so why make the customer learn a new production description every time a change is made to the genetic line? Given the letter code, variation code and batch number, it would be easy for the Long-Range Planning Board to look up the actual genetic line identifier and revision (or generation) number; for Hugh it would be "F-23xb" and "74421" to get whatever genetic line was in use at the time he was produced. So the genetic line could be changed between batches without needing to change any marketing material.