Cupid

tlb wrote:Although we only see it applied to men, ugly is not extinct. The passage with Helen and Paulo points to the fact that bio-sculpting can do anything than gene editing can do. Specifically you have no evidence that bio-sculpting is as limited as you say it is.

And we know, from Elaine/Georgia that biosculpt can include gene modifications; because of this line "I found your first biosculpt technician," Zilwicki told her very, very softly. "The one who rekeyed the genetic sequence on your tongue."" (And Anton is usually very precise; if he said "first biosculpt technician" that almost certainly means he'd found that she'd used at least one more (no reason to say "first" if there isn't at least a "second)


Also, there's this line in FoD, when Sakristos "her lovely face (the best biosculpt money could buy)" is thinking about how she how she arranged Pavil hiring the duelest Denver. So we don't have to speculate that (some of?) her beauty came from biosculpt rather than genetics.

Now, what biosculpt can't do is adjust skeletal structure (height, etc.). However nanotech body transformation can change even that. (See Berry and Ruth in CoS).


So, taken together, it seems that if you've got the money and the desire (and access to a first world medical establishment) you can change most anything; from your skeletal structure, to your looks, to retro-gene therapy to alter/rekey your original genetics (not sure what the limits on that last are)

tlb wrote:Although we only see it applied to men, ugly is not extinct. The passage with Helen and Paulo points to the fact that bio-sculpting can do anything than gene editing can do. Specifically you have no evidence that bio-sculpting is as limited as you say it is.

Jonathan_S wrote:And we know, from Elaine/Georgia that biosculpt can include gene modifications; because of this line "I found your first biosculpt technician," Zilwicki told her very, very softly. "The one who rekeyed the genetic sequence on your tongue."" (And Anton is usually very precise; if he said "first biosculpt technician" that almost certainly means he'd found that she'd used at least one more (no reason to say "first" if there isn't at least a "second)

Also, there's this line in FoD, when Sakristos "her lovely face (the best biosculpt money could buy)" is thinking about how she how she arranged Pavil hiring the duelest Denver. So we don't have to speculate that (some of?) her beauty came from biosculpt rather than genetics.

Now, what biosculpt can't do is adjust skeletal structure (height, etc.). However nanotech body transformation can change even that. (See Berry and Ruth in CoS).

So, taken together, it seems that if you've got the money and the desire (and access to a first world medical establishment) you can change most anything; from your skeletal structure, to your looks, to retro-gene therapy to alter/rekey your original genetics (not sure what the limits on that last are)

I would have been inclined to consider nanotech transformation as part of bioscutpt, but as you say there is this passage in Crown of Slaves, chapter 2:

Queen Elizabeth chuckled. "A nanotech transformation? You're certainly free with the royal purse, Captain Zilwicki!"
Anton made no reply beyond a thin smile. That seemed like a better response than: sure, it'll cost a small fortune—but for you, that's pocket change.
Elizabeth studied the two girls herself. She seemed a bit uncertain, although Anton was quite sure the hesitation was not because of the expense involved. Biosculpt would have been cheaper, but biosculpt was—literally—only skin deep, and they needed more than that in this case. Although Berry and Ruth were very similar physical types, aside from Berry's dark brown hair and Ruth's golden blond, they weren't quite the same height. And while neither of them would ever be called stocky, Ruth was noticeably finer-boned than Berry. It wasn't anything which would be hugely apparent to a casual observer, but it would show up instantly if anyone decided to run a side-by-side comparison of their HD images.
Unless, of course, the differences were reversed before the HD cameras ever saw them.

CULLED LINES

cthia wrote:Some things can be implied. She was a slave which means she came from one of the slave lines.

C-line is a sex slave.

D thru F lines are general utility lines. Hugh Arai and Donald X. Big creatures.

J-lines were slaves with mechanical ability as well as physical strength. Accounting and record keeping. She doesn't strike me as being muscular, or she could have pounded Young's ass like Honor had. "OH, I was bred to give as well as I get. You like that? 'Whack!'"

K-line Personal servants. Clowns jugglers. Entertainment. Jeremy X.

V-line Technical combat. Trained in martial arts. No to taking crap off Young.

And she is drop dead gorgeous. So which line do you think she was in?

tlb wrote:Where did you get this list, Wiki or the books? What about the missing letters? -snip-

jonathan_S wrote:C-line I can find - (From the Highlands; re: Ginny Usher)

D, E, and F I can find
CoS does say

Crown of Slaves wrote:Going by his appearance, he was probably one of what Manpower called its "general utility lines," which they designated either D or E. That was a fancy way of saying that they hadn't bothered to do much in the way of genetic engineering.

It also says

Crown of Slaves wrote:Donald X had come into the universe in Manpower's slave-breeding vats, bearing only the name-breeding number, more precisely-of F-67d-8455-2/5. The "F" prefix indicated a slave bred for a life of heavy manual labor. Donald had decided otherwise, years later, but his adult body still bore the imprint of that original intention. He was not excessively tall, but thick and muscular in every dimension.

(Which means that F is not a general utility line; based on the same books description of that that term meant. The heavy labor line would require more genetic engineering that the not much used in the "general" lines)

J-line I can find - (Crown of Slaves; re: Du Havel)

Crown of Slaves wrote:Du Havel had been bred a J-line by Manpower. That was-supposedly; as usual, their claims fell wide of reality-a breed designed for technical work. Thus, an emphasis on mental capability, at least of a low and mechanical variety. But also, since J-lines were designed basically for engineering work, a breed which was physically quite sturdy. Web wasn't particularly tall, and his long years of sedentary intellectual activity had put thirty kilos of fat on his frame. But the frame beneath was still square and solid.

While it didn't use the terms "K-line" or "V-line" I can find those too:

Changer of Worlds wrote:Jeremy had come into the universe in one of Manpower Inc.'s breeding chambers on Mesa. K-86b/273-1/5, they had called him. The "K" referred to the basic genetic type-in Jeremy's case, someone bred to be a personal servant, just as Isaac's "V" denoted one of the technical combat breeds. The "-86b" referred to one of the multitude of slight variants within the general archetype. In Jeremy's case, the variant designed to provide clients with acrobatic entertainment-jugglers and the like. Court clowns, in essence. The number 273 referred to the "batch," and the 1/5 meant that Jeremy was the first of the quintuplets in that batch to be extracted from the breeding chamber.

(Isaac's number is V-44e-684-3/5)
Though I don't see anything saying the technical combat breeds are trained in martial arts. (Actually, depending on what they mean by "technical" they might well be geared towards base affinity for operating combat vehicles, or armed ships, or other high-tech weapons systems; rather than hand to hand)
But note that these descriptions say nothing about their frame or size (and none of them say what the female versions of the lines looked like)

However, just because Eric Flint (note these are all from his books) happened to mention just 7 lines (and 1 slight variant) does not mean that these are the only lines. In fact the way they're spread from C - V very strongly implies that there are at least 20 main genetic lines.
There might be more than one pleasure / sex / courtesan line; there might be beautiful women in a number of the lines. (And, as pointed out above, we don't even know if Georgia was beautiful before she visited the biosculptor who removed her number from her tongue). As it's described we can probably rule out F-line heavy labor for her, but nothing precludes her coming from a general or technical line, or from a not yet described line elsewhere in the alphabet.

cthia wrote:Another excellent post! i meant to mention this ...

I have always assumed that the missing lines represent entire "culled lines."

Jonathan_S wrote:To me, that seems unlikely. First I tend to doubt they'd cull an entire line like that.

I disagree, textev confirms that entire lines were culled.

Jonathan_S wrote: "Oops, our latest improvements on F-line heavy labor models didn't turn out as expected; guess we better cull the whole line including the previous versions that were still adequate for sale" -- Yeah, I just don't see that.

I do. I bring a lot of baggage into the forum, as I noticed most other posters do as well. In particular, the entirety of our professional experiences. If I didn't know any better, and I don't, I would tend to think nobody here has ever worked in production, particularly on an assembly line making all manner of parts. The highest paying jobs in this field put you closer to the realities of the process. A position of at least supervisor of the "line" affords more knowledge of the operation. A Quality Check (QC) position is even better. And an extraction mold technician, a mold maker, a line technician who is responsible for repairing the machinery, and a software analyst for troubleshooting the computers are all the most familiar with the operation.

And these people have often heard the phrase, STOP THE PRESS!

Very serious problems will result in the line being completely shut down. And every single object that came off the line has to be discarded because of serious defects. Oftentimes a "production run" will never be attempted again because of some unsolvable problem. Some runs were meant to be limited production runs anyway, and were assuming risks with new materials and untried techniques.

In our example, if a line shows unacceptable results early on, that line will be culled. I imagine it happened quite a bit.

On present day earth, we still battle over abortions. The first trimester is considered by law in some cities to be the cut off point.

What about the HV? There is no time limitation on "abortions." Abortions, in the form of culling can happen at any time. Even into adulthood.

I imagine that each line, represented by letters, vary significantly from line to line, for the most part. But each line is a new attempt fraught with fresh new perils that could go wrong. Let's say that an entire line has produced slaves that showed a serious aberration by age 5. That entire line will be culled. The problems with that line might never have been solved, or is a work in progress. And if the aberration is one that could taint future efforts, that line will be culled and placed on hold until the problem is solved. It might be determined the line isn't worth the effort.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the primary reason I think it's extremely unlikely that the rest of the alphabet would (all) represent culled lines is that Eric Flint never represented the ones we have as anything like a comprehensive list. It wasn't presented as a list at all -- simply we've met, spread mostly through Eric's stories and books (those a couple in David's) a bare handful of former slaves where their line has happened to be mentioned.

Seriously, the only reason we can compile a list is because of 7 people:
Virginia 'Ginny' Usher (C-17a/65-4/5) - C-line
Timothy Zeiger (D-17d-2547-2/5) - D-line
(E-line was mentioned as another general purpose line when we met Zeiger)
Donald X (F-67d-8455-2/5) and Hugh Arai (F-23xb-74421-4/5) - F-line
W.E.B. Du Havel (J-16b-79-2/3) - J-line
Jeremy X (K-86b/273-1/5) - K-line
Isaac Douglass (V-44e-684-3/5) - V-line

It seems insane to me to assume that an almost random sampling of 7 people just happened to present us with every active genetic line Manpower has.

True, I agree. But it does highlight some of the terrain. And if you view it with the characteristics of a periodic table, certain categories would tend to clump together, and certain other categories would be out of place.

Do note that these configurations are within the "production run" and "job lots" of slaves only.

I certainly cannot see Alphas, Betas and Gamma's found between the lines of sex slaves and the general utility lines.

And C-line sex slaves are implied to be only one variant of sex slave. They are probably the most expensive and the most difficult to engineer. Where are the generic sex slaves? What happened to A-line and B-line sex slaves?

The production run of slaves tend to make me think that the research had been complete and the lines were laid out and ready for production. I see no likely reason to begin production of the slave lines if ALL of the "molds" are not complete. So, any missing lines that suggest themselves with missing letters, were, indeed planned, but suggest something may have gone wrong. What may have gone wrong is a serious defect in the line.

Some of the missing lines very well could be scheduled lines which are dependent on some other as of yet incomplete research. But some I simply think are culled lines.

Jonathan_S wrote:To me that seems kind of like saying, "well, we know the Nazis killed entire families of resistant fighters. And this 1946 pamphlet of famous resistant fighters covers 7; so I guess those are the only family lines that survived. The Nazi's must have culled all the others".

I see your point, but. If entire lines were planned, and then later culled, what would that do the the letter designations?

Looking more closely at the Bardasano genotype.

wiki wrote:The Bardasano genotype was one of Mesa's prime genetic lines, guided by the Mesan Alignment.

It was notable for over six generations for intelligence and ruthless determination, although there were a few unfortunate and unintended traits, such as a tendency towards sexual disorders and mildly sociopathic behavior. At one point the Mesan Alignment was tempted to cull the line's last several iterations, and restart development from a much earlier genotype. The beneficial traits, however, proved to be so strong and useful that a remedial program was implemented instead, merely culling the lines last several iterations.

Thanks to the performance of Isabel Bardasano, the line had temporary Alpha status within the Mesan Alignment. Albrecht Detweiler expected the status to become permanent if the negative traits were dealt with within the next few generations. (SI2)

Because she was so useful, and because it seems to have taken six generations to discover the errant traits, I suspect that is why they decided to simply cull the previous two generations. But what if the offending traits were much too serious, AND dangerous to mankind, dangerous to the Alignment, and dangerous to the overall plan? Then that entire line will be culled.

Jonathan_S wrote:It's making, what seem to me, way, way, too broad a conclusion from a miniscule number of data points.

You may be right in the end. But, such is my vote, as it were.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the primary reason I think it's extremely unlikely that the rest of the alphabet would (all) represent culled lines is that Eric Flint never represented the ones we have as anything like a comprehensive list. It wasn't presented as a list at all -- simply we've met, spread mostly through Eric's stories and books (those a couple in David's) a bare handful of former slaves where their line has happened to be mentioned.

Seriously, the only reason we can compile a list is because of 7 people:
Virginia 'Ginny' Usher (C-17a/65-4/5) - C-line
Timothy Zeiger (D-17d-2547-2/5) - D-line
(E-line was mentioned as another general purpose line when we met Zeiger)
Donald X (F-67d-8455-2/5) and Hugh Arai (F-23xb-74421-4/5) - F-line
W.E.B. Du Havel (J-16b-79-2/3) - J-line
Jeremy X (K-86b/273-1/5) - K-line
Isaac Douglass (V-44e-684-3/5) - V-line

It seems insane to me to assume that an almost random sampling of 7 people just happened to present us with every active genetic line Manpower has.

cthia wrote:True, I agree. But it does highlight some of the terrain. And if you view it with the characteristics of a periodic table, certain categories would tend to clump together, and certain other categories would be out of place.

Do note that these configurations are within the "production run" and "job lots" of slaves only.

I certainly cannot see Alphas, Betas and Gamma's found between the lines of sex slaves and the general utility lines.

And C-line sex slave are implied to be only one variant of sex slave. They are probably the most expensive and the most difficult to engineer. Where are the generic sex slaves. What happened to A-line and B-line sex slaves?

I think it might be more productive to think of the first few characters before the batch number as catalog codes. Only the "C" model is a sex slave (not "A" nor "B") and Ginny was a "17a" variant; just as Jeremy was a "86b" variant of the basic "K" model. There is no reason (in my limited view) to include the actual genetic code in the catalog specification, since the basic genetic makeup of a household servant can change over the centuries, but there is no need for the catalog number to also vary as wildly. It has been pointed out that this coding is ridiculously inadequate for describing the genetics of a multi-century biology factory.

Alphas, Betas and Gammas are not being sold, so would not need a catalog model number.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But the primary reason I think it's extremely unlikely that the rest of the alphabet would (all) represent culled lines is that Eric Flint never represented the ones we have as anything like a comprehensive list. It wasn't presented as a list at all -- simply we've met, spread mostly through Eric's stories and books (those a couple in David's) a bare handful of former slaves where their line has happened to be mentioned.

Seriously, the only reason we can compile a list is because of 7 people:
Virginia 'Ginny' Usher (C-17a/65-4/5) - C-line
Timothy Zeiger (D-17d-2547-2/5) - D-line
(E-line was mentioned as another general purpose line when we met Zeiger)
Donald X (F-67d-8455-2/5) and Hugh Arai (F-23xb-74421-4/5) - F-line
W.E.B. Du Havel (J-16b-79-2/3) - J-line
Jeremy X (K-86b/273-1/5) - K-line
Isaac Douglass (V-44e-684-3/5) - V-line

It seems insane to me to assume that an almost random sampling of 7 people just happened to present us with every active genetic line Manpower has.

cthia wrote:True, I agree. But it does highlight some of the terrain. And if you view it with the characteristics of a periodic table, certain categories would tend to clump together, and certain other categories would be out of place.

Do note that these configurations are within the "production run" and "job lots" of slaves only.

I certainly cannot see Alphas, Betas and Gamma's found between the lines of sex slaves and the general utility lines.

And C-line sex slave are implied to be only one variant of sex slave. They are probably the most expensive and the most difficult to engineer. Where are the generic sex slaves. What happened to A-line and B-line sex slaves?

I think it might be more productive to think of the first few characters before the batch number as catalog codes. Only the "C" model is a sex slave (not "A" nor "B") and Ginny was a "17a" variant; just as Jeremy was a "86b" variant of the basic "K" model. There is no reason (in my limited view) to include the actual genetic code in the catalog specification, since the basic genetic makeup of a household servant can change over the centuries, but there is no need for the catalog number to also vary as wildly. It has been pointed out that this coding is ridiculously inadequate for describing the genetics of a multi-century biology factory.

Alphas, Betas and Gammas are not being sold, so would not need a catalog model number.

I think we should be cautious placing too much stock in designations. There may be designations for production, designations for R&D, and designations for marketing.

We see that today with Order number. Serial number. Model number. Different departments need different numbers.

We also do not know whether these are part of some control group that precedes and is a prerequisite for eventual full blown production runs. All production lines do a limited test run.

Regardless of whether Alphas, Betas and Gamma's are being sold, they would still have a place on the periodic table. They are the recipients who benefit from the fruit of all the labors. So for that reason alone, their placement needs to be documented for R&D.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:Although we only see it applied to men, ugly is not extinct. The passage with Helen and Paulo points to the fact that bio-sculpting can do anything than gene editing can do. Specifically you have no evidence that bio-sculpting is as limited as you say it is.

And we know, from Elaine/Georgia that biosculpt can include gene modifications; because of this line "I found your first biosculpt technician," Zilwicki told her very, very softly. "The one who rekeyed the genetic sequence on your tongue."" (And Anton is usually very precise; if he said "first biosculpt technician" that almost certainly means he'd found that she'd used at least one more (no reason to say "first" if there isn't at least a "second)


Also, there's this line in FoD, when Sakristos "her lovely face (the best biosculpt money could buy)" is thinking about how she how she arranged Pavil hiring the duelest Denver. So we don't have to speculate that (some of?) her beauty came from biosculpt rather than genetics.

Now, what biosculpt can't do is adjust skeletal structure (height, etc.). However nanotech body transformation can change even that. (See Berry and Ruth in CoS).


So, taken together, it seems that if you've got the money and the desire (and access to a first world medical establishment) you can change most anything; from your skeletal structure, to your looks, to retro-gene therapy to alter/rekey your original genetics (not sure what the limits on that last are)

Rekeying the genetic sequence on a tongue should be something a bioscultptor could handle. It isn't a genetic change deeply embedded into the gene sequence. In fact, this may be an aftermarket alteration.

The fact that Georgia had biosculpting done doesn't surprise me. But it does nothing as far as prove what she was originally created to be.

When she fled, she had to alter her appearance. She definitely would want to employ one of the better "surgeons" to perform the work. Look what happened to Michael Jackson, and he certainly could afford the best. I don't even recognize Jennifer Grey who plays "baby" on Dirty Dancing. She was said to only have gotten a nose job. And I thought she was very pretty, beforehand.

But, as I suggested earlier, it is probably better for the bioscultptor if the client "Gives him enough to work with." Georgia's results could have been less beautiful than she was originally. But the important thing for her would have been anonymity.

cthia wrote:Regardless of whether Alphas, Betas and Gamma's are being sold, they would still have a place on the periodic table. They are the recipients who benefit from the fruit of all the labors. So for that reason alone, their placement needs to be documented for R&D.

Certainly the Long-Range Planning Board has to have that documentation, but there the actual genetic line would be given a serial number or some sort of specific name (like Bardasano or Detweiler line). However there is no reason to expose the customer to the vagaries of the specific genetic line that is being offered as a household servant this season. Again, the stock number that is ingrown on the slaves tongue is not of sufficient complexity to cover all the genetic lines that have been developed or discarded over the centuries.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Regardless of whether Alphas, Betas and Gamma's are being sold, they would still have a place on the periodic table. They are the recipients who benefit from the fruit of all the labors. So for that reason alone, their placement needs to be documented for R&D.

Certainly the Long-Range Planning Board has to have that documentation, but there the actual genetic line would be given a serial number or some sort of specific name (like Bardasano or Detweiler line). However there is no reason to expose the customer to the vagaries of the specific genetic line that is being offered as a household servant this season. Again, the stock number that is ingrown on the slaves tongue is not of sufficient complexity to cover all the genetic lines that have been developed or discarded over the centuries.

Again, these may simply be control groups that have a limited production run, which precedes and is a prerequisite for full production runs. Full production runs would have an expanded nomenclature, and I would assume that full production runs would come at a much later date than the control groups which spawns them. Control groups must be observed and examined for defects for quite some time before becoming a homogenous mixture of full production runs and lines.

cthia wrote:I do. I bring a lot of baggage into the forum, as I noticed most other posters do as well. In particular, the entirety of our professional experiences. If I didn't know any better, and I don't, I would tend to think nobody here has ever worked in production, particularly on an assembly line making all manner of parts. The highest paying jobs in this field put you closer to the realities of the process. A position of at least supervisor of the "line" affords more knowledge of the operation. A Quality Check (QC) position is even better. And an extraction mold technician, a mold maker, a line technician who is responsible for repairing the machinery, and a software analyst for troubleshooting the computers are all the most familiar with the operation.

And these people have often heard the phrase, STOP THE PRESS!

Very serious problems will result in the line being completely shut down. And every single object that came off the line has to be discarded because of serious defects. Oftentimes a "production run" will never be attempted again because of some unsolvable problem. Some runs were meant to be limited production runs anyway, and were assuming risks with new materials and untried techniques.

In our example, if a line shows unacceptable results early on, that line will be culled. I imagine it happened quite a bit.

I think you're putting too my emphasis on "line." You've equated a genetic line with a production line and "stop the press" to stop it when a big defect is found.

But instead of thinking of just stopping a production line, add to it as recalling all previous products in the market AND halting research and development on the next iterations. That doesn't happen overnight. A product may become extinct if its market disappears or is replaced by a different, better product (for some definition of "better" - see The Innovator's Dilemma and The Innovator's Solution by Clayton Christensen), but usually not for a flaw found in a current iteration of the problem.

You've even posted the proof to that in the Bardasano section:

At one point the Mesan Alignment was tempted to cull the line's last several iterations, and restart development from a much earlier genotype.

They would cull several iterations, but restart the "line" from an earlier version that was known to be unaffected by the flaw.

So of the letters we don't know, it's possible some have ceased being used: the "product" no longer has a marketplace. But I don't think we can assume that's the case for all the letters in the alphabet that we've never seen used. It's like saying that you've only seen suitcases in black and silver, therefore suitcases only exist in these two tones.

cthia wrote:Regardless of whether Alphas, Betas and Gamma's are being sold, they would still have a place on the periodic table. They are the recipients who benefit from the fruit of all the labors. So for that reason alone, their placement needs to be documented for R&D.

tlb wrote:Certainly the Long-Range Planning Board has to have that documentation, but there the actual genetic line would be given a serial number or some sort of specific name (like Bardasano or Detweiler line). However there is no reason to expose the customer to the vagaries of the specific genetic line that is being offered as a household servant this season. Again, the stock number that is ingrown on the slaves tongue is not of sufficient complexity to cover all the genetic lines that have been developed or discarded over the centuries.

cthia wrote:Again, these may simply be control groups that have a limited production run, which precedes and is a prerequisite for full production runs. Full production runs would have an expanded nomenclature, and I would assume that full production runs would come at a much later date than the control groups which spawns them. Control groups must be observed and examined for defects for quite some time before becoming a homogenous mixture of full production runs and lines.

Why highlight the "stock number" line and then not address it? I am saying that there is no reason to assign a stock number until the line is production ready and no longer in a test stage. Your comments merely emphasize that the format that we see for the "stock number" is insufficient to handle several centuries worth of starts, stops and incremental improvements.

PS: I am reminded that whatever serial number that is assigned by the Long-Range Planning Board, it has to include a generation number at the end for situations like the culling of 2 generations from the Bardasano line.