Cupid

cthia wrote:But I recall textev saying that he liked doing depraving and despicable things to his women, and did them to Georgia as well. His requests were sickening. I also recall her stating that his brother was no picnic either, being a Young. Not as bad as Pavel, but still a Youngin at heart.

Textev on the "only once"?

tlb wrote:Field of Dishonor, chapter 19:

It had taken only one night, and the bruises that went with it, to convince her that even prison would be better than an unending sentence as Pavel Young's "lover," and she was still his chief security officer. In anyone else, that combination would have been too stupid to believe; in his case, Sakristos understood exactly how it worked, and her lips worked with the desire to spit. No one else was quite real to Pavel Young. That was especially true for women, but it applied to everyone else around him, as well. He lived in a universe of cardboard cutouts, of human-shaped things provided solely for his use. He had no sense of them as people who might resent him—or, indeed, who had any right to resent him—and he was too busy doing things to them to even consider what they might do to him if they got the chance.

Not having been a slave also means not to pretend to judge what the Ballroom would do to an ex-slave that gains freedom by selling out other slaves. I doubt that talking will be involved.

cthia wrote:I think that would be a crying shame and a travesty of Justice to condemn and murder without giving an opportunity to defend oneself.
That is like saying a woman who is constantly beaten and abused cannot one day snap and commit murder, and is wholly responsible for her actions without leniency. She was abused by an entire organization ALL of her life. I shudder to even think of the despicable things a sex slave might be forced to do. Temporary insanity and self-preservation. She sold out the other slaves, yes, but can their lives be blamed on her? She has to live with that, and she is probably a victim of her own worst nightmares. Again I say 'time served.'
-- skip --
At any rate, it doesn't actually say that it only happened one night, but that it had only taken one night to identify what she was lying under.

I was wrong, she had sex with him at least twice by the book, from Field of Dishonor:

chapter 13 wrote:The door closed, and North Hollow smiled at his father's chief dirty tricks specialist.
"Yes, My Lord?" she said politely.
"Pavel. It's still Pavel to you . . . Elaine."
"Of course, Pavel." Sakristos smiled back, but it was hard, even for her, for she knew the new earl's reputation. His father had promised to remove her name from his vault before he passed it on—that had been part of the quid pro quo that ensured her loyalty—but Pavel's use of the name "Elaine" proved he hadn't. She'd been afraid of that, given the suddenness of the old earl's death, and a shiver ran through her at the confirmation of her worst fear. Dimitri Young had been too wrecked by dissipation to do more than ogle her, but Pavel's smile told her he wanted more of her than the last earl had . . . and he had the weapons to demand it. He could do far worse than ruin her career; he could send her to prison for so long not even prolong would preserve her looks until she was released.

chapter 27 wrote:He couldn't believe how wrong things had gone. That traitorous bastard Tankersley had gone down exactly as planned, and he'd exulted as he savored his triumph over the bitch. He'd hurt her this time. Oh, yes, he'd hurt her, and he'd tasted her pain like sweet, sweet wine. He'd known when Agni departed to take her the news, and he'd counted the hours and treated himself to supper at Cosmo's and a celebratory night with Georgia on the day he calculated word had reached her, then waited in tingling anticipation for her return.

chapter 29 wrote:She grimaced. Stefan was as bad as Pavel in most ways. She knew he was pursuing her primarily to humiliate Pavel by taking "his" woman away—none of the Youngs had ever seen attractive women as anything but a way to keep score, or people less powerful than they as anything except tools—but he was at least a little smarter than his eldest brother. Once Pavel was gone (and once she had that file out of his vault), Stefan should prove much easier to guide. Someone with an imagination was always easier to manipulate, especially when he had the ambition for power and knew his manipulator intended to share it with him.

So Pavel could blackmail her into bed, but she would continue with Stefan without coercion because that put her into a position of power as Lady Georgia Young.

I find it amazing that you have more feeling for her than for the transport full of people that thought they had escaped slavery, but were betrayed back into it by her. Is it because she has been given names and they are just faceless nonentities to you? What could she say to the Ballroom to justify that: the worst sort of treason in the world of the slave? A point you are ignoring is that her subsequent career as an "alleged" criminal mastermind (uncharged due to lack of evidence) should prove that she had the brains and guts to escape, but that would have left her penniless.

Go tell the Ballroom that it is "a crying shame and a travesty of Justice to condemn and murder without giving an opportunity to defend oneself", since that is their entire mode of operation in the fight against Mesa.

PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

tlb wrote:So Pavel could blackmail her into bed, but she would continue with Stefan without coercion because that put her into a position of power as Lady Georgia Young.

She is not the first woman who slept her way to the top and won't be the last. And? But if she can continue on with Stefan, without being pummeled on like a punching bag because of a creep who can't get it up otherwise -- or God only knows what other despicable horrors that made up Pavel Young's requests -- then more power to her! Pun, opportunistic.

tlb wrote:I find it amazing that you have more feeling for her than for the transport full of people that thought they had escaped slavery, but were betrayed back into it by her. Is it because she has been given names and they are just faceless nonentities to you? What could she say to the Ballroom to justify that: the worst sort of treason in the world of the slave? A point you are ignoring is that her subsequent career as an "alleged" criminal mastermind (uncharged due to lack of evidence) should prove that she had the brains and guts to escape, but that would have left her penniless.

You are being presumptuous again to assume she had what it took to escape, as a sure thing.

At any rate, you are terribly wrong regarding your assumptions about my feelings as well. (See the highlighted part of your post.)

I am the very same person who hates the MAlign for ALL of the sickening atrocities meted out by them. I have literally shed more than a single tear for ALL of the victims of the MAlign. Again. Literally. Can you claim the same? The entire culled lines. The murdered babies. Herlander Simoes' daughter Francesca. So no, there are billions of victims that had no names, many probably didn't even live long enough to get a name. But I STILL feel the pain of every single one of them.

At every turn since I have been on the forum, I have been challenged by my apparently low tolerance of what should be considered as a Mesan atrocity. Less than a week or two ago, didn't you challenge my opinion for even implying that Leonard had to employ tactics which includes some of those same atrocities? So, likewise, I find it even more amazing that you seem to care more for a freighter full of slaves than for the other billions of the MAlign's victims.

Here's the thing ...



THING:

I have always shuddered when reading the gory details of the MAlign. They are enough to make me sick. To borrow a line from Rambo, I am certain the author could feed us further details of the MA that would make a Billy Goat puke!!!

Therefore, I can't condemn any single slave for perhaps having to endure more than she could bear. Even if she truly felt she had to betray her own mother to get out! I don't know her whole story. I don't know what she endured at the hands of the MA.* I don't know what her personal breaking point was.

What could she possibly say to the Ballroom? I don't know. But I would certainly like to. Regardless, I am willing to listen.

My parents always taught us not to condemn people until or unless you have walked a mile in their shoes. Or in this case, slept a few nights in her bed.

To borrow from Star Trek, "Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? Or the one?"

Even if your life is the counterbalance on the scale?

I don't know how many slaves were in that freighter. But if someone came up to you and told you that you could save twice that many people if you gave up your freedom, would you?

tlb wrote:Go tell the Ballroom that it is "a crying shame and a travesty of Justice to condemn and murder without giving an opportunity to defend oneself", since that is their entire mode of operation in the fight against Mesa.

PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

*We do know what kind of slave she is. She is the worst type. A C-line sex slave.

wiki informant wrote:The C-line was a line of genetic slaves bred by Manpower Incorporated of Mesa.

C-line sex slaves, both women (A-variants) and men (B-variants), were among the company’s most popular breeds, always in demand on the market. Their genotype had been selected and shaped for physical attractiveness and for as much in the way of libidinal energy and submissiveness as the Mesan gengineers could pinpoint in the genetic code.

Developing C-lines were subjected to rigorous training, including forced sex training starting at the age of nine, which was called the "Phenotype developmental process".

However, C-lines proved to be rather intelligent and independent compared to other lines; as a result, a high percentage of them had a tendency to escape captivity once they left the extreme security environment of the breeding grounds on Mesa. (HHA3.3: FtH)

Why do you think such a high percentage of them escaped?

tlb wrote:Go tell the Ballroom that it is "a crying shame and a travesty of Justice to condemn and murder without giving an opportunity to defend oneself", since that is their entire mode of operation in the fight against Mesa.

PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

cthia wrote:We do know what kind of slave she is. She is the worst type. A C-line sex slave.

Please point me to that text; she did not escape, she bought her way out and made a profit on the deal.

cthia wrote:What could she possibly say to the Ballroom? I don't know. But I would certainly like to. Regardless, I am willing to listen.

If it were a proper court, she could claim the defence of temporary insanity. She could even find sympathetic ears in the (sorry for mixing metaphors) eyes of her peers -- escaped slaves -- and get an acquittal or something.

The problem is that her judge is the Ballroom, which is not a proper court. It's also not her peer, since none in the Ballroom would have escaped the way she did. Moreover, I expect those who are members and did something that harmed other slaves in their act of escaping or prior to it to have taken the opportunity to make amends for it. She did not; for the past two decades, she'd been living in hiding and profiting from the money she got for her betrayal of the freighter.

So her judge and jury have already convicted her in absentia. She effectively chose not to participate in her own trial, however reasonable her motives for doing so were (she could say it would never have been fair).

Besides, do we know that Jeremy wanted to kill her? He was an effective assassin, but that doesn't mean all he does is assassinate. With Torch available, her sentence may have been different.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Go tell the Ballroom that it is "a crying shame and a travesty of Justice to condemn and murder without giving an opportunity to defend oneself", since that is their entire mode of operation in the fight against Mesa.

PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

cthia wrote:We do know what kind of slave she is. She is the worst type. A C-line sex slave.

Please point me to that text; she did not escape, she bought her way out and made a profit on the deal.

She escaped just like the other high percentage of C-line slaves, just by other means.

C-line is mentioned in her "wicked wiki" biography.

She was an extremely beautiful woman who men couldn't keep their paws off of. That sounds like a sex slave to me, especially in a galaxy of biosculpted women.

I suppose Pavel Young thought that her breeding was for his brand of sex, and a plus. If everything about C-lines was contained in her file.

cthia wrote:At every turn since I have been on the forum, I have been challenged by my apparently low tolerance of what should be considered as a Mesan atrocity. Less than a week or two ago, didn't you challenge my opinion for even implying that Leonard had to employ tactics which includes some of those same atrocities? So, likewise, I find it even more amazing that you seem to care more for a freighter full of slaves than for the other billions of the MAlign's victims.

Exactly how do you arrive at that preposterous statement? We are not weighing a "freighter full of slaves" against "billions of the MAlign's victims", instead we are weighing the proper response to one woman who made victims of every one of those slaves in the freighter. As Thinksmarkedly points out there are now courts that might assume jurisdiction; however since she did flee Manticore, so who knows what will happen.

PS: Note that Leonard is NOT the Malign and so we have no way that any atrocities were committed in the laboratories that were under his control. Unless you are going to count unrequested genetic changes as an atrocity, but we cannot judge whether those changes were good or bad.

tlb wrote:Go tell the Ballroom that it is "a crying shame and a travesty of Justice to condemn and murder without giving an opportunity to defend oneself", since that is their entire mode of operation in the fight against Mesa.

PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

cthia wrote:We do know what kind of slave she is. She is the worst type. A C-line sex slave.

tlb wrote:Please point me to that text; she did not escape, she bought her way out and made a profit on the deal.

cthia wrote:She escaped just like the other high percentage of C-line slaves, just by other means.

C-line is mentioned in her "wicked wiki" biography.

She was an extremely beautiful woman who men couldn't keep their paws off of. That sounds like a sex slave to me, especially in a galaxy of biosculpted women.

I suppose Pavel Young thought that her breeding was for his brand of sex, and a plus. If everything about C-lines was contained in her file.

That is not proof since the Wiki does not point to any of the books for that statement. Your supporting statement is nothing but your fallacious opinion without any weight. Pavel Young thought every one was plaything and if a woman was attractive that she was a sexual plaything.

So point me to text in the books, not fanboy fantasies.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

We do know what kind of slave she is. She is the worst type. A C-line sex slave.

tlb wrote:Please point me to that text; she did not escape, she bought her way out and made a profit on the deal.

She escaped just like the other high percentage of C-line slaves, just by other means.

C-line is mentioned in her "wicked wiki" biography.

She was an extremely beautiful woman who men couldn't keep their paws off of. That sounds like a sex slave to me, especially in a galaxy of biosculpted women.

I suppose Pavel Young thought that her breeding was for his brand of sex, and a plus. If everything about C-lines was contained in her file.

The Wiki does indeed say that. Though I've no earthly idea why; since C-line slaves are mentioned in only 1 paragraph in the books -- in Changer of Worlds, as part of Eric Flint's "From the Highlands" -- and all in reference to Virginia 'Ginny' Usher.

We never, that I can find or remember, learned what her line was or even her name as a slave. Anton Zilwiki discovered what her slave barcode was (which would have encoded her slave line) but we don't know that info.

So -- as best I can tell -- "Syalantillesfel" has no evidence to back up their May 2018 edit that added that text to the wiki. And definitely I can find nothing in the books about Pavel having a file on her that included any info about her being an escaped slave; nor even about her identity before becoming Georgia Sakristos.

cthia wrote:She was an extremely beautiful woman who men couldn't keep their paws off of. That sounds like a sex slave to me, especially in a galaxy of biosculpted women.

That is not proof, because we know she underwent biosculpting herself.

She might have been a line of slaves for bureaucracy and office work (white collar labour), which would explain her intelligence, for all we know.

tlb wrote:PS: we do not know what sort of slave that she was designed to be, just that she was murderously effective at whatever she decided to do.

cthia wrote:We do know what kind of slave she is. She is the worst type. A C-line sex slave.

tlb wrote:Please point me to that text; she did not escape, she bought her way out and made a profit on the deal.

cthia wrote:She escaped just like the other high percentage of C-line slaves, just by other means.

C-line is mentioned in her "wicked wiki" biography.

She was an extremely beautiful woman who men couldn't keep their paws off of. That sounds like a sex slave to me, especially in a galaxy of biosculpted women.

I suppose Pavel Young thought that her breeding was for his brand of sex, and a plus. If everything about C-lines was contained in her file.

Jonathan_S wrote:The Wiki does indeed say that. Though I've no earthly idea why; since C-line slaves are mentioned in only 1 paragraph in the books -- in Changer of Worlds, as part of Eric Flint's "From the Highlands" -- and all in reference to Virginia 'Ginny' Usher.

We never, that I can find or remember, learned what her line was or even her name as a slave. Anton Zilwiki discovered what her slave barcode was (which would have encoded her slave line) but we don't know that info.

So -- as best I can tell -- "Syalantillesfel" has no evidence to back up their May 2018 edit that added that text to the wiki. And definitely I can find nothing in the books about Pavel having a file on her that included any info about her being an escaped slave; nor even about her identity before becoming Georgia Sakristos.

Actually there probably was a tidbit about her as Elaine Komondorski, because the file contained something that could send her to prison in Manticore, therefore it was about her criminal past in the city of Landing.