Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

kzt wrote:We know the files were not encrypted because the RMN read them. If they were encrypted and nobody on the ship had the keys then they wouldn’t be reading them.

You don’t hide plans for emergencies. You practice them so everyone knows what to do.

It’s like Sully over the Hudson getting a message from the airplane: “The birdstrike requires the use of the the emergency engine out manual. Please unlock the safe, remove the manual from it’s sealed envelope labeled HJ43, read pages 2-27 and follow the checklist on page A37.”

How is that gonna work?

Exactly! You took the words right out of my mouth.

This is also a good example of my niece's distinction between strategy and tactics.

Strategy is formulated in the War Room. If that strategy is to be used as a tactic in the heat of battle, it has to be known beforehand. When the Salamander is bearing down on you, you don't have time to break glass. It and the bulk heads are already breaking around you.

Which brings us right back to the question. If there were conscientious officers who were not willing to carry out those orders under some specific conditions, then why did they not report it?

Even if only from the paralyzing fear that some other ignoramus would.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Question. Although the MAlign is responsible for inserting at least one of the nefarious contingency plans into the SLN's reportoire, how did these plans go unnoticed to the SL at large? It seems that morally responsible officers would balk to someone, if there were any morally responsible officers.

Sealed orders. Break glass in case of fire.

If they are contingencies, there's no need for all COs to have been briefed on them ahead of time. There must have been dozens if not hundreds of contingency plans, procedures, and checklists. For example, what should a BatCruRon CO do if they'd found themselves surrounded by a superior force?

In particular, most COs might balk at the original Case Buccaneer and Case Fabius plans, so they wouldn't ever be briefed on them ahead of time. You don't want everyone in the SLN, even just the COs, to know about such orders, because they would leak to the public and press. OFS Governors would know, though. They would point to the CO to go open those files, which would then give legitimacy to what the OFS bureaucrat would want the FF to do.

Also the orders we know were in SLN databanks were in FF ships. The ones doing dirty work for the OFS beyond the boundaries of the League. We don't even know if all FF ships carried those contingency orders or if there were dirty officers in FF steering promotions and assignments of captains and crews they thought would do what OFS wanted and keeping the people who seemed more like they might do the right thing in assignments within the League -- because it's not like all FF was doing was strong arming verge planets into accepting or not rebelling against OFS "protection" and takeover by transtellars. The fleet assigned to the Maya sector protectorates was also FF; and that was a group of planets that don't seem to have been strong-armed by OFS and the transtellars. FF probably provided the bulk of day to day presence around the Shell too. So there's plenty of places to stick your White Knight types to keep them from being confronted with the dirty work that parts of the FF do for the OFS.

And those cases wouldn't be emergency drills you practice. They're basically documents saying "hey, OFS people of this rank or higher really do have the authority to order you do attack certain merchant ships or destroy certain orbital infrastructure" Actually attacking the ships and infrastructure isn't something you'd specifically have to drill on.

(Also, we don't know that the files weren't encrypted. 10th fleet had also taken an OFS sector capital; the Meyers System, and they might well have captured back-ups of the keys when their intel folks and computer forensics teams scoured though the captured OFS HQ systems. All we know is that they were found in the ship's databanks; we're not told what steps Manticore had to go through to access them. Or they might have just been encrypted with a key the ship's senior officers had; which would at least keep most of the crew from reading them -- but which could be captured with the ships. Or maybe they uses a non-encryption file access control which Manticoran was able to bypass. Or maybe they read out the orders to be evil during a mass happy hour every Friday . We just don't know)

Jonathan_S wrote:

(Also, we don't know that the files weren't encrypted. 10th fleet had also taken an OFS sector capital; the Meyers System, and they might well have captured back-ups of the keys when their intel folks and computer forensics teams scoured though the captured OFS HQ systems. All we know is that they were found in the ship's databanks; we're not told what steps Manticore had to go through to access them. Or they might have just been encrypted with a key the ship's senior officers had; which would at least keep most of the crew from reading them -- but which could be captured with the ships. Or maybe they uses a non-encryption file access control which Manticoran was able to bypass. Or maybe they read out the orders to be evil during a mass happy hour every Friday . We just don't know)

Manticorian Cyberneticists have had several years to play with hundreds of captured SLN computer cores. The beginning of UH has one such professional tricking interesting data out of one of the Surviving Raging Justice cores. Also, I believe there has been discussion of SLN encryption being "below SL consumer grade". So it might was well have been the most protected data on the ship, these levels of protection might not be saying much to the RMN cyber professionals.

Theemile wrote:The beginning of UH has one such professional tricking interesting data out of one of the Surviving Raging Justice cores.

Are you referring to finding the unauthorized conversation in the message logs with someone on the flag deck that shows Filareta gave the surrender order, which was superseded by the pod launch and the explosion? Because I do not think that was encoded, just hard to find.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Question. Although the MAlign is responsible for inserting at least one of the nefarious contingency plans into the SLN's reportoire, how did these plans go unnoticed to the SL at large? It seems that morally responsible officers would balk to someone, if there were any morally responsible officers.

Sealed orders. Break glass in case of fire.

If they are contingencies, there's no need for all COs to have been briefed on them ahead of time. There must have been dozens if not hundreds of contingency plans, procedures, and checklists. For example, what should a BatCruRon CO do if they'd found themselves surrounded by a superior force?

In particular, most COs might balk at the original Case Buccaneer and Case Fabius plans, so they wouldn't ever be briefed on them ahead of time. You don't want everyone in the SLN, even just the COs, to know about such orders, because they would leak to the public and press. OFS Governors would know, though. They would point to the CO to go open those files, which would then give legitimacy to what the OFS bureaucrat would want the FF to do.

Jonathan_S wrote:Also the orders we know were in SLN databanks were in FF ships. The ones doing dirty work for the OFS beyond the boundaries of the League. We don't even know if all FF ships carried those contingency orders or if there were dirty officers in FF steering promotions and assignments of captains and crews they thought would do what OFS wanted and keeping the people who seemed more like they might do the right thing in assignments within the League -- because it's not like all FF was doing was strong arming verge planets into accepting or not rebelling against OFS "protection" and takeover by transtellars. The fleet assigned to the Maya sector protectorates was also FF; and that was a group of planets that don't seem to have been strong-armed by OFS and the transtellars. FF probably provided the bulk of day to day presence around the Shell too. So there's plenty of places to stick your White Knight types to keep them from being confronted with the dirty work that parts of the FF do for the OFS.

And those cases wouldn't be emergency drills you practice. They're basically documents saying "hey, OFS people of this rank or higher really do have the authority to order you do attack certain merchant ships or destroy certain orbital infrastructure" Actually attacking the ships and infrastructure isn't something you'd specifically have to drill on.

(Also, we don't know that the files weren't encrypted. 10th fleet had also taken an OFS sector capital; the Meyers System, and they might well have captured back-ups of the keys when their intel folks and computer forensics teams scoured though the captured OFS HQ systems. All we know is that they were found in the ship's databanks; we're not told what steps Manticore had to go through to access them. Or they might have just been encrypted with a key the ship's senior officers had; which would at least keep most of the crew from reading them -- but which could be captured with the ships. Or maybe they uses a non-encryption file access control which Manticoran was able to bypass. Or maybe they read out the orders to be evil during a mass happy hour every Friday . We just don't know)

Well, by the definition of human nature, if people can be found within OFS and FF willing to carry out such orders, then surely despicable "relatives" of these beasts can be found within the SLN.

However, I still do not see how encrypted files would change the logistics of it all. There has to be someone aboard who knows about and has seen these plans, and these plans need to be studied beforehand to determine the best way to carry them out. As kzt basically said, when shit begins to rain down from the sky, that is too late to go looking for a wetsuit. Besides, a "break glass in case of..." plan is much too general a description for all the ways that sort of a contingency might fit.

cthia wrote:However, I still do not see how encrypted files would change the logistics of it all. There has to be someone aboard who knows about and has seen these plans, and these plans need to be studied beforehand to determine the best way to carry them out. As kzt basically said, when shit begins to rain down from the sky, that is too late to go looking for a wetsuit. Besides, a "break glass in case of..." plan is much too general a description for all the ways that sort of a contingency might fit.

I'm claiming no one aboard might have known those files were there. Any flagship will be a massive datacentre and it's impossible for any one person to know all files that are there. At least, not in every ship.

But someone not aboard knew they were there: the OFS governors and sector directors. Those would tell the CO of a task force to go look up file labelled "Case Buccaneer" in their long-term storage partition and read the instructions.

I'm not saying no one in the SLN FF would know those files were there. But I'm saying the vast majority, including most task force COs, wouldn't.

Byng was also ex-Battle Fleet, though he was commanding a FF BC squadron or two. Very likely, he didn't know about those contingency plans. And it's from his ships' computers that the RMN got those cases. And if I am getting my details wrong, the next opportunity for the RMN to get those files would have been from Crandall's Fleet, which would mean the BF was carrying those orders around and no one would be fooled by SDs playing pirate.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:However, I still do not see how encrypted files would change the logistics of it all. There has to be someone aboard who knows about and has seen these plans, and these plans need to be studied beforehand to determine the best way to carry them out. As kzt basically said, when shit begins to rain down from the sky, that is too late to go looking for a wetsuit. Besides, a "break glass in case of..." plan is much too general a description for all the ways that sort of a contingency might fit.

I'm claiming no one aboard might have known those files were there. Any flagship will be a massive datacentre and it's impossible for any one person to know all files that are there. At least, not in every ship.

But someone not aboard knew they were there: the OFS governors and sector directors. Those would tell the CO of a task force to go look up file labelled "Case Buccaneer" in their long-term storage partition and read the instructions.

I'm not saying no one in the SLN FF would know those files were there. But I'm saying the vast majority, including most task force COs, wouldn't.

Byng was also ex-Battle Fleet, though he was commanding a FF BC squadron or two. Very likely, he didn't know about those contingency plans. And it's from his ships' computers that the RMN got those cases. And if I am getting my details wrong, the next opportunity for the RMN to get those files would have been from Crandall's Fleet, which would mean the BF was carrying those orders around and no one would be fooled by SDs playing pirate.

I think I edited myself out of clarity.

Massive datadumps would seem counter-intuitive to security. Why would you have random classified data in a computer?

At any rate, if you are right and all kinds of data are located inside the dumps, then right along with those files would be the files that they do know about to support their current known mission. And "those" files would be known.

But we are talking about horrible contingency plans, and "these" files would also have to be known if they are going to be an option on the current mission.*

Do note: When Honor whacked Filareta on the heiney for the horrible plans that were found in the data banks, Filareta didn't seem surprised by the revelation.

*I most likely incorrectly used "those" and "these" in hopes of separating the known plans like Case Buccaneer from the more horrible contingency plans.

kzt wrote:We know the files were not encrypted because the RMN read them. If they were encrypted and nobody on the ship had the keys then they wouldn’t be reading them.

You don’t hide plans for emergencies. You practice them so everyone knows what to do.

It’s like Sully over the Hudson getting a message from the airplane: “The birdstrike requires the use of the the emergency engine out manual. Please unlock the safe, remove the manual from it’s sealed envelope labeled HJ43, read pages 2-27 and follow the checklist on page A37.”

How is that gonna work?

I disagree. These aren't tactics that have to be practiced. They are orders to use their already-practiced skills to accomplish a particular objective. Think 9/11--pilots were told to get their birds on the ground ASAP. Nobody practiced grounding all the planes, pilots already know how to get their birds on the ground ASAP. ATC already knew how to keep two planes out of the same piece of air or runway.

And from what we've seen the IT security on board anything other than a GA warship is atrocious. I think it's a matter of the crews not being competent--putting in good security would keep them from doing their jobs.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

kzt wrote:We know the files were not encrypted because the RMN read them. If they were encrypted and nobody on the ship had the keys then they wouldn’t be reading them.

You don’t hide plans for emergencies. You practice them so everyone knows what to do.

It’s like Sully over the Hudson getting a message from the airplane: “The birdstrike requires the use of the the emergency engine out manual. Please unlock the safe, remove the manual from it’s sealed envelope labeled HJ43, read pages 2-27 and follow the checklist on page A37.”

How is that gonna work?

I disagree. These aren't tactics that have to be practiced. They are orders to use their already-practiced skills to accomplish a particular objective. Think 9/11--pilots were told to get their birds on the ground ASAP. Nobody practiced grounding all the planes, pilots already know how to get their birds on the ground ASAP. ATC already knew how to keep two planes out of the same piece of air or runway.

And from what we've seen the IT security on board anything other than a GA warship is atrocious. I think it's a matter of the crews not being competent--putting in good security would keep them from doing their jobs.

Considering the contingency plans in question, we are talking about a much more complicated task. Nobody practices anything related to committing EE violations in general. Those plans would have to be known beforehand just to have time to brief the crew on them. You don't want your XO threatening to have you arrested for issuing such orders. Or causing officers to mutiny and ignore your orders in the heat of battle.

However, if you wait to read the orders after everything has gone to hell in a handbasket, then you may have already committed yourself too far and are now in the incorrect position to tactically carry out those orders.

cthia wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:
I disagree. These aren't tactics that have to be practiced. They are orders to use their already-practiced skills to accomplish a particular objective. Think 9/11--pilots were told to get their birds on the ground ASAP. Nobody practiced grounding all the planes, pilots already know how to get their birds on the ground ASAP. ATC already knew how to keep two planes out of the same piece of air or runway.

And from what we've seen the IT security on board anything other than a GA warship is atrocious. I think it's a matter of the crews not being competent--putting in good security would keep them from doing their jobs.

Considering the contingency plans in question, we are talking about a much more complicated task. Nobody practices anything related to committing EE violations in general. Those plans would have to be known beforehand just to have time to brief the crew on them. You don't want your XO threatening to have you arrested for issuing such orders. Or causing officers to mutiny and ignore your orders in the heat of battle.

However, if you wait to read the orders after everything has gone to hell in a handbasket, then you may have already committed yourself too far and are now in the incorrect position to tactically carry out those orders.

First, neither of the two plans we know were found were (necessarily) EE violations. The parts of the Verge that OFS is likely to be pressuring are unlikely to have large enough orbital habitats for even a surprise destruction of their orbitals to rise to the level of an EE violation. (Remember, even Manticore didn't have that level of orbiting habitation -- the destruction of it's stations was specifically noted as not being an EE violation).

But also, just because a order has abhorrent results doesn't mean it is technically difficult to carry out. (A willingness to carry it out might be harder to find; but the skill aren't). Any warship that cared to could easily carry out an EE violation simply by targeting their missiles at a habitable planet and firing. They've plenty of training on aiming missiles -- and aiming them as at planet is easier than at a ship that might maneuver.

And any warship would be just as technically capable of targeting their missiles on an orbital or on a merchantman. Those aren't difficult tasks -- they're easier than the targets they practice shooting at. As Loren Pechtel said -- this is just applying skills they've already trained on.