Cupid

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:No. Agreed. And now that you and I are on a rare ledge together, and per my friend's sentiment, how can the blame fall squarely on Houseman's shoulders? It seems to my friend (and to me after he first posed the question) that the mission was sabotaged out of the gate.

The honorable Reginald Houseman was simply being true to -- and honorable to -- himself and his own soap box.

It appears that the mission and the Navy wanted Houseman to lie and parrot only what they wanted him to say, and not say what he tuly felt and believed. Was Houseman simply too honorable to do that?

They knew who he was before they attached themselves to his back.

Stop it, you continue to confuse the mission to Grayson (set up by the Foreign Office before Houseman had made his unsuitability glaringly apparent) and his stint as the Second Lord in the High Ridge government. On the mission to Grayson, he was only intended to talk about economic incentives; where he was highly qualified as the text I presented made clear.

The part that he insisted on talking about (until the actual numbers were presented to him, which finally shut him up) were outside of his area of expertise and not part of his duty to mission. There is no reason to blame the Navy for this, since they did not put this group of people together; that was done by the Foreign Office.

Let's try this again.

Sure, Houseman's unsuitability reered its ugly head enroute to Grayson. Enroute to Grayson. NOT while in the conference.

Houseman should have been locked in his room before entering the Endicott System. And again I ask, what economic incentives did they need Houseman, specifically Houseman, to explain that the Graysons wouldn't already be aware of. The Graysons were not mathematically disinclined. They didn't NEED Houseman.

I was not mixing the two. I just don't understand his stint as Second Lord of the Admiralty... either!

cthia wrote:Let's try this again.

Sure, Houseman's unsuitability reered its ugly head enroute to Grayson. Enroute to Grayson. NOT while in the conference.

Houseman should have been locked in his room before entering the Endicott System. And again I ask, what economic incentives did they need Houseman, specifically Houseman, to explain that the Graysons wouldn't already be aware of. The Graysons were not mathematically disinclined. They didn't NEED Houseman.

I was not mixing the two. I just don't understand his stint as Second Lord of the Admiralty... either!

But you do know why he was wanted as Second Lord by High Ridge, you said it yourself: the government "wanted Houseman to lie and parrot only what they wanted him to say" about the Naval budget.

The head of the mission to Grayson ordered him to stick to the topic that he was expert in, but the head of the mission is not his superior in the Foreign Office, from chapter 11:

“Yes.” Courvosier grimaced. “Since the question of economic aid is on today’s agenda, you’re going to have to put up with the Honorable Reginald Houseman.”
“Ah. Should I assume Mr. Houseman is going to be a problem?”
“Yes and no. I’ve laid down the law to him, and I’m pretty sure he’ll play by my rules when it comes to actual policy drafting, but he thinks of me as a naval officer, whereas he’s a Great Statesman.” Courvosier grimaced again. “He’s also a patronizing son-of-a-bitch who thinks all us military types want to solve problems with a gun in either hand and a knife between our teeth.”
“I see. We’re not completely unfamiliar with the type here,” Yanakov said, but Courvosier shook his head.
“Not his type, believe me. He’s part of the domestic group that wants to hold down our own Fleet expenditures to keep from ‘provoking’ Haven, and he genuinely believes we could avoid war with them if the military only stopped terrifying Parliament with scare stories about Havenite preparations. Worse, he thinks of himself as a student of military history.” Courvosier’s lips twitched with amusement at some recollection, then he shrugged.
“The point is, he’s not one of my greater admirers, and he’s not at all pleased with the military cooperation agreements you and I initialed yesterday. He’s got all sorts of reasons, but what it comes down to is that his ‘study of the problem’ convinces him our assumption of Masada’s fundamental hostility to your planet is ‘unduly pessimistic.’ “ Yanakov blinked, and Courvosier nodded. “You’ve got it. He believes in peaceful coexistence, and he can’t quite grasp that a cragsheep can coexist with a hexapuma only from the inside. As I say, he even thinks we should be looking for ways to coexist with Haven.”
“You’re joking . . . aren’t you?”
“I wish I were. Anyway, I suspect he’s going to see your Chancellor’s presence as his last chance to salvage the situation from us warmongers. I told him to watch his step, but I’m not really with the Foreign Office. I doubt he’s too worried about any complaints I may file with his superiors, and from the way he looked last night, I figure he’s got his Statesman Hat on. He’s just likely to start preaching to you about the virtues of economic cooperation with Masada as a way to resolve your ‘minor’ religious differences.”

So perhaps they should have locked him in his cabin, but the result was that he got slapped down publicly when he expressed his views, with no damage to the mission.

PS: Grayson is in the Yeltsin System and Masada is in the Endicott System (which they never entered, of course).

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Let's try this again.

Sure, Houseman's unsuitability reered its ugly head enroute to Grayson. Enroute to Grayson. NOT while in the conference.

Houseman should have been locked in his room before entering the Endicott System. And again I ask, what economic incentives did they need Houseman, specifically Houseman, to explain that the Graysons wouldn't already be aware of. The Graysons were not mathematically disinclined. They didn't NEED Houseman.

I was not mixing the two. I just don't understand his stint as Second Lord of the Admiralty... either!

But you do know why he was wanted as Second Lord by High Ridge, you said it yourself: the government "wanted Houseman to lie and parrot only what they wanted him to say" about the Naval budget.

The head of the mission to Grayson ordered him to stick to the topic that he was expert in, but the head of the mission is not his superior in the Foreign Office, from chapter 11:

“Yes.” Courvosier grimaced. “Since the question of economic aid is on today’s agenda, you’re going to have to put up with the Honorable Reginald Houseman.”
“Ah. Should I assume Mr. Houseman is going to be a problem?”
“Yes and no. I’ve laid down the law to him, and I’m pretty sure he’ll play by my rules when it comes to actual policy drafting, but he thinks of me as a naval officer, whereas he’s a Great Statesman.” Courvosier grimaced again. “He’s also a patronizing son-of-a-bitch who thinks all us military types want to solve problems with a gun in either hand and a knife between our teeth.”
“I see. We’re not completely unfamiliar with the type here,” Yanakov said, but Courvosier shook his head.
“Not his type, believe me. He’s part of the domestic group that wants to hold down our own Fleet expenditures to keep from ‘provoking’ Haven, and he genuinely believes we could avoid war with them if the military only stopped terrifying Parliament with scare stories about Havenite preparations. Worse, he thinks of himself as a student of military history.” Courvosier’s lips twitched with amusement at some recollection, then he shrugged.
“The point is, he’s not one of my greater admirers, and he’s not at all pleased with the military cooperation agreements you and I initialed yesterday. He’s got all sorts of reasons, but what it comes down to is that his ‘study of the problem’ convinces him our assumption of Masada’s fundamental hostility to your planet is ‘unduly pessimistic.’ “ Yanakov blinked, and Courvosier nodded. “You’ve got it. He believes in peaceful coexistence, and he can’t quite grasp that a cragsheep can coexist with a hexapuma only from the inside. As I say, he even thinks we should be looking for ways to coexist with Haven.”
“You’re joking . . . aren’t you?”
“I wish I were. Anyway, I suspect he’s going to see your Chancellor’s presence as his last chance to salvage the situation from us warmongers. I told him to watch his step, but I’m not really with the Foreign Office. I doubt he’s too worried about any complaints I may file with his superiors, and from the way he looked last night, I figure he’s got his Statesman Hat on. He’s just likely to start preaching to you about the virtues of economic cooperation with Masada as a way to resolve your ‘minor’ religious differences.”

So perhaps they should have locked him in his cabin, but the result was that he got slapped down publicly when he expressed his views, with no damage to the mission.

PS: Grayson is in the Yeltsin System and Masada is in the Endicott System (which they never entered, of course).

Of course he should have been locked in his cabin, for the sake of the mission. Courvosier KNEW he was going to be a problem.

"Ah. Should I assume Mr. Houseman is going to be a problem?"

"Yes and no."

Bold mine.

And we are right back to my friend's question. Is it fair to place the blame on Houseman? Honor should have "slapped him down" before he had a chance to show his ass. For the sake of the mission. Courvosier probably would have loved that! I don't think Courvosier had the authority to do so.

PS I still mix the Yeltsin and Endicott Systems up. Thanks.

cthia wrote:And we are right back to my friend's question. Is it fair to place the blame on Houseman? Honor should have "slapped him down" before he had a chance to show his ass. For the sake of the mission. Courvosier probably would have loved that! I don't think Courvosier had the authority to do so.

Of course, it is fair to blame him for spouting his uninformed prejudices. Once he was made aware of Masada's military budget as a percentage of GDP, he finally shut up. There is no reason why that was not already known to him, except for his colossal ego and indifference to facts.

Honor had even less right to slap him down then, than Courvosier did (as he was head of mission, Houseman should have obeyed). Honor got into enough trouble for the slap that she eventually did administer.

Houseman's attitude is similar to that of White Haven after he skimmed the Weapons Bureau report. There Honor did administer the verbal beating.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:And we are right back to my friend's question. Is it fair to place the blame on Houseman? Honor should have "slapped him down" before he had a chance to show his ass. For the sake of the mission. Courvosier probably would have loved that! I don't think Courvosier had the authority to do so.

Of course, it is fair to blame him for spouting his uninformed prejudices. Once he was made aware of Masada's military budget as a percentage of GDP, he finally shut up. There is no reason why that was not already known to him, except for his colossal ego and indifference to facts.

Honor had even less right to slap him down then, than Courvosier did (as he was head of mission, Houseman should have obeyed). Honor got into enough trouble for the slap that she eventually did administer.

Houseman's attitude is similar to that of White Haven after he skimmed the Weapons Bureau report. There Honor did administer the verbal beating.

But wasn't it Honor who was told to bring back a treaty, at all costs?

tlb wrote:The head of the mission to Grayson ordered him to stick to the topic that he was expert in, but the head of the mission is not his superior in the Foreign Office, from chapter 11:

“Yes.” Courvosier grimaced. “Since the question of economic aid is on today’s agenda, you’re going to have to put up with the Honorable Reginald Houseman.”
“Ah. Should I assume Mr. Houseman is going to be a problem?”
“Yes and no. I’ve laid down the law to him, and I’m pretty sure he’ll play by my rules when it comes to actual policy drafting, but he thinks of me as a naval officer, whereas he’s a Great Statesman.” Courvosier grimaced again. “He’s also a patronizing son-of-a-bitch who thinks all us military types want to solve problems with a gun in either hand and a knife between our teeth.”
“I see. We’re not completely unfamiliar with the type here,” Yanakov said, but Courvosier shook his head.
“Not his type, believe me. He’s part of the domestic group that wants to hold down our own Fleet expenditures to keep from ‘provoking’ Haven, and he genuinely believes we could avoid war with them if the military only stopped terrifying Parliament with scare stories about Havenite preparations. Worse, he thinks of himself as a student of military history.” Courvosier’s lips twitched with amusement at some recollection, then he shrugged.
“The point is, he’s not one of my greater admirers, and he’s not at all pleased with the military cooperation agreements you and I initialed yesterday. He’s got all sorts of reasons, but what it comes down to is that his ‘study of the problem’ convinces him our assumption of Masada’s fundamental hostility to your planet is ‘unduly pessimistic.’ “ Yanakov blinked, and Courvosier nodded. “You’ve got it. He believes in peaceful coexistence, and he can’t quite grasp that a cragsheep can coexist with a hexapuma only from the inside. As I say, he even thinks we should be looking for ways to coexist with Haven.”
“You’re joking . . . aren’t you?”
“I wish I were. Anyway, I suspect he’s going to see your Chancellor’s presence as his last chance to salvage the situation from us warmongers. I told him to watch his step, but I’m not really with the Foreign Office. I doubt he’s too worried about any complaints I may file with his superiors, and from the way he looked last night, I figure he’s got his Statesman Hat on. He’s just likely to start preaching to you about the virtues of economic cooperation with Masada as a way to resolve your ‘minor’ religious differences.”

So perhaps they should have locked him in his cabin, but the result was that he got slapped down publicly when he expressed his views, with no damage to the mission.

PS: Grayson is in the Yeltsin System and Masada is in the Endicott System (which they never entered, of course).

And it was probably far outside Courvosier authority, even as head of mission, to freeze out one of the Foreign Office's subject matter experts just because of what he said in the pre-mission discussions. Sure, Houseman was spouting off nonsense while being way outside his actual area of expertise -- but as long as that was kept inside the Manticoran mission, and especially during the final planning before they started meeting with the Graysons, it's hard to punish him too hard.

Lay down the law -- on what is on the table and what he'd not allowed to say -- sure. That's the perogative of head of mission. But preemptively yank him and keep him away from the Graysons because of suspicion that he's going to violate those guidelines -- well that's pushing things a lot. And it's likely to blow back on Courvosier and on the Queen's efforts to get this treaty ratified once it's brought back to Manticore.


It would be all too easy for Houseman's supporters to dismiss that behind closed doors statements by saying he was just "playing devils advocate", or "making sure all angles had been considered", or something along that line. Claiming that there was no way he'd have violated the orders of his head of mission and thus it was totally outrageous that he'd been pulled off and the treaty allowed to proceed without the critical input from the Foreign Office's expert on economic assistance. "Clearly such a misguided action is proof that the government botched this whole thing and we can't possibly vote to ratify this flawed treaty".

Most likely all Courvosier could do was explain things, warn Houseman on the record about not bringing that nonsense up to the Graysons, and then slap him down after he violated those orders. (And of course tip off the Grayson delegation, behind the scenes, that if Houseman did make such statements he would not be representing the views of the mission or Her Majesties Government)

Edit - and even after slapping him down publicly he still didn't lock Houseman up or even pull him off the mission. In fact the very next thing he did was to instruct Houseman to proceed with his presentation on building up Grayson's industrial and technical base; but assuming that Manticore will be their primary trading partner. And Houseman does in fact go ahead and begin with "government guarantees for loans to Grayson industrial consortiums". So Houseman was humiliated, through his own actions, but still remained part of the mission and its expert on financial and economic matters; and contributed in that area until Courvosier died in the defense of Grayson.

cthia wrote:But wasn't it Honor who was told to bring back a treaty, at all costs?

No, it was the head of the mission that was told that, from chapter 13:

“My government will do what Her Majesty tells it to do,” Courvosier said flatly, “and Her Majesty told me to come back with a treaty with Grayson.” Yanakov looked at him wordlessly, and he shrugged. “I can’t very well do that if I let Masada wipe you out, can I?” He shook his head. “I’m not too worried about the Crown’s reaction, or even Parliament’s. The Queen’s honor is at stake here."

Honor was only in charge of the ships that were guarding the freighters and the mission personnel.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:But wasn't it Honor who was told to bring back a treaty, at all costs?

No, it was the head of the mission that was told that, from chapter 13:

“My government will do what Her Majesty tells it to do,” Courvosier said flatly, “and Her Majesty told me to come back with a treaty with Grayson.” Yanakov looked at him wordlessly, and he shrugged. “I can’t very well do that if I let Masada wipe you out, can I?” He shook his head. “I’m not too worried about the Crown’s reaction, or even Parliament’s. The Queen’s honor is at stake here."

Honor was only in charge of the ships that were guarding the freighters and the mission personnel.

Thanks. I certainly wasn't sure of that.

But that doesn't change things. Courvosier's fealty was to the Queen. "Bring back a treaty."

At all costs is what I heard. And if Courvosier asked Honor to slap the P out of Houseman's GPA to ensure that they come back with a GA was pre-authorized.

cthia wrote: if Courvosier asked Honor to slap the P out of Houseman's GPA to ensure that they come back with a GA was pre-authorized.

That would be an illegal order and both Courvosier and Honor would get in trouble if carried out.

The successful defense of an ally was the only reason Honor did not get in more trouble.

GPA = Grade Point Average?

GA is certainly not a Grade Alliance at that point in history.

cthia wrote:But wasn't it Honor who was told to bring back a treaty, at all costs?

I don't think so. Originally she wasn't even (officially) part of the mission.

Honor of the Queen wrote:onor returned to her screen. Officially, she wasn’t here expressly to support Admiral Courvosier’s mission. Instead, she was senior officer of the escort assigned to a convoy whose ultimate goal was the Casca System, twenty-two light-years beyond Yeltsin’s Star. Neither Yeltsin nor Casca were in a particularly good galactic neighborhood
[...] The situation had gotten far worse of late, and Honor (and the Office of Naval Intelligence) more than suspected that Haven’s interest in the region helped account for that—a suspicion which, in turn, explained why the Admiralty had provided the convoy with an escort of two cruisers and a pair of destroyers.

In fact it doesn't appear that anybody was ordered to "bring back a treaty, at all costs". And that makes sense to me. There would be possible costs, military, political, or diplomatic which Manticore would never accept.

* If the Graysons had been nearly as misogynistic as the Masadans they might have refused to discuss any treaty that didn't have a condition of the Queen abdicating in favor of a male heir.

* Or they might have made dangerously unreasonable military demands; like refusing to discuss a treaty that didn't involve placing 65% of the RMN's Home Fleet permanently in the Yeltsin system as it was the front line of the war. Manticore would be cutting its own throat to agree to that.

* And "all costs" includes things like initiating a coup to install a puppet government if the existing one won't give you the treaty you're demanding. And that would ruin Manticore's reputation with the very neutrals the treaty with Grayson was supposed to help entice toward's Manticore's side.

The closest we have to that (and it's a long way) is the Queen (as tbl posted) told Courvosier "to come back with a treaty with Grayson"; but the official mission brief he was given did not say that; rather it stressed "the absolute importance of securing our relationship with Grayson. The government hopes we’ll come home with a formal alliance, but they’ll settle for anything that brings the Yeltsin System more fully into our sphere of influence and decreases Haven’s access here".

(So the very mission parameters said the treaty wasn't the most important thing the mission could achieve.)

I've skimmed through the book and Courvosier, before his death, never gives Honor any orders about securing the agreement. Nor does Ambassador Langtry after her return to the Yeltsin system.

In fact in the meeting with Langtry after her return Houseman had inherited control of Admiral Courvosier’s mission to Grayson -- though the Ambassador retained authority over "Her Majesty’s continuing interests" there. (That's the authority that Houseman used to try to order Honor to evacuate his cowardly ass from the system)


Now Honor still sees it as important to succeed in gaining an alliance with Grayson. But more importantly (correctly in my opinion) she sees cutting an running, abandoning them after they've been attacked by Haven's ships and proxy, as an irrecoverable stain on the honor of Manticore, its Government and its Queen.

But that's not the same as saying that she sees getting the treaty as all important. It would satisfy honor she committed her forces to the defense of Grayson; even if afterwards they (ungratefully) sent her away without any treaty or agreement.

And Honor never actually assumed control of the mission to get that treaty. She only got to sign it as Her Majesty's representative because Protector Benjamin, through Langtry, requested Queen Elizabeth to designate Honor as the signatory.