Cupid

Fox2! wrote:

cthia wrote:Since I met Meghan Petersen, I would sure like to see her shipped with someone. Since I am unavailable, I think the author should give the girl a break.

The Baroness Angrim is engaged to Jayson Stob, Commander, RMN, currently a patient undergoing regeneration treatment at Basingford Medical Center on Manticore after the destruction of his ship, HMS Cinqueda in Hypatia.

Thanks. I am sure I will enjoy a reread of UH. I remembered Jayson Stob's name after I read your post. Dunno why that fact didn't stick with me. Probably because I was lusting after his girl. Anyway, thanks.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Their position as a slave has NOTHING to do with their morality, since it clearly was not a choice that they were permitted to make.

cthia wrote:I never said or implied as much. I made it clear that it was not a moral judgement of my own. But it would be a possible response from the congregation in the church.

The postman should not be soiled by the dirty porno magazines that he delivers. It is simply a reality.

Note that I did NOT say that you were making such a judgement, I was reacting to anyone who would make such a judgement.

Indeed, and thanks for stressing that point, to be clear. As a precaution, I was also stressing the fact that I remain neutral, to be clear, in light of not wanting to repeat many previous like-minded misunderstandings.

tlb wrote:The postman is required to delivered all the mail, you will not always deliver even your own thoughts; but how do those thoughts come to you? Is it possible that you are presenting things that you think would be said?

That is a darn good question, and for a long time I have wanted to ask many authors the same thing. I actually did ask RFC how he comes by his ideas and the responses of his characters.

At any rate, I have always been able to see the flip side of coins and the baggage that sticks to the sides. I have often mentioned how several of my grade school teachers have praised my "uncanny ability to walk in a character's shoes."

My father taught me to think outside the box where life really is. Grayson is somewhat outside the box. Religion puts them there. Oftentimes Grayson's reactions will depend on their religious beliefs, and forming a psychological profile on Grayson simply cannot be done without an understanding of their inner core. Which is devoutly religious in nature. This is the most important fact that eluded Houseman.

roseandheather wrote:

namelessfly wrote:I wonder (hope?) if there might have been something going on between Honor and MikeHenke when they were roomates at the academy.

...of course you do.

Truthfully, I don't think so, simply because of Honor's Issues - but I do have my suspicions regarding Mike's feelings for her best friend.

Amaroq wrote:Interesting idea. We haven't heard anything about any romantic entanglements on Mike's part in awhile...

But of course, a lot of girls have a history of experimentation with the same sex by the time they finished college. Oftentimes a girl is the first person a lot of girls kissed. They helped each other out with the insecurities of that first kiss. Honor had a lot of dating insecurities that Michelle would have helped her with.

So, at the very least, they might have kissed. Purely platonically.

cthia wrote:My father taught me to think outside the box where life really is. Grayson is somewhat outside the box. Religion puts them there. Oftentimes Grayson's reactions will depend on their religious beliefs, and forming a psychological profile on Grayson simply cannot be done without an understanding of their inner core. Which is devoutly religious in nature. This is the most important fact that eluded Houseman.

It's not that it 'eluded' Houseman, he straight out didn't even TRY to understand the Graysons. He was up on his soapbox, looking down on all Graysons and expecting them to automatically listen simply because he opened his mouth.


He's described in the same book as being an "Ivory Tower intellectual" due to his being a graduate of Mannheim University which was nicknamed "Socialist U" for its graduates' tendency toward ivory-tower intellectualism and supporting liberal views. There's clear evidence he dismissed literally everything about his briefings about them before he ever even spoke to one based on his attitudes and words in that final briefing/dinner aboard Fearless.


And that's unfortunately becoming an ever greater problem these days. More and more people are in ivory towers, thinking they know things, making statements that have precious little to do with reality, and expecting their words to become reality simply because they said so. Then get angry with anything that is not 100% total agreement, or simply have a different view on 'how' to do/fix whatever you're discussing, let alone if dare you poke holes in their 'logic' to point out flaws.


Which is also exactly what happened to Houseman, he was on his soapbox to the Graysons about the 'nobility' of peacefully giving money to a would-be Conquistador, and not breaking your bank to build up any fleet even for purely defense reasons. And then he got all sulky later when Courvosier figuratively drove his face into a document to explain the various reasons why Grayson is bankrupting itself for even a hope at defending itself. IIRC it was even pointed out the similarities between Masada/Grayson with Haven/Manticore which ol'Reggie conveniently forgot later during the High Ridge cease-fire.

It's truly a shame that somehow Reginald's actions as Second Lord of the Admiralty weren't deemed as actually illegal and he was permitted to retire into academia and become a lecturer at Mannheim. He knowingly cooked the books to produce the specific results that High Ridge wanted during the early days of the ceasefire, and he knowingly failed to properly advise about minor details including things like the lead-up time to resuming construction. Most of the Cabinet were surprised that simply authorizing construction at Grendelsbane did not actually mean that construction would resume the minute the order arrived but it would take several weeks.

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:My father taught me to think outside the box where life really is. Grayson is somewhat outside the box. Religion puts them there. Oftentimes Grayson's reactions will depend on their religious beliefs, and forming a psychological profile on Grayson simply cannot be done without an understanding of their inner core. Which is devoutly religious in nature. This is the most important fact that eluded Houseman.

It's not that it 'eluded' Houseman, he straight out didn't even TRY to understand the Graysons. He was up on his soapbox, looking down on all Graysons and expecting them to automatically listen simply because he opened his mouth.


He's described in the same book as being an "Ivory Tower intellectual" due to his being a graduate of Mannheim University which was nicknamed "Socialist U" for its graduates' tendency toward ivory-tower intellectualism and supporting liberal views. There's clear evidence he dismissed literally everything about his briefings about them before he ever even spoke to one based on his attitudes and words in that final briefing/dinner aboard Fearless.


And that's unfortunately becoming an ever greater problem these days. More and more people are in ivory towers, thinking they know things, making statements that have precious little to do with reality, and expecting their words to become reality simply because they said so. Then get angry with anything that is not 100% total agreement, or simply have a different view on 'how' to do/fix whatever you're discussing, let alone if dare you poke holes in their 'logic' to point out flaws.


Which is also exactly what happened to Houseman, he was on his soapbox to the Graysons about the 'nobility' of peacefully giving money to a would-be Conquistador, and not breaking your bank to build up any fleet even for purely defense reasons. And then he got all sulky later when Courvosier figuratively drove his face into a document to explain the various reasons why Grayson is bankrupting itself for even a hope at defending itself. IIRC it was even pointed out the similarities between Masada/Grayson with Haven/Manticore which ol'Reggie conveniently forgot later during the High Ridge cease-fire.

It's truly a shame that somehow Reginald's actions as Second Lord of the Admiralty weren't deemed as actually illegal and he was permitted to retire into academia and become a lecturer at Mannheim. He knowingly cooked the books to produce the specific results that High Ridge wanted during the early days of the ceasefire, and he knowingly failed to properly advise about minor details including things like the lead-up time to resuming construction. Most of the Cabinet were surprised that simply authorizing construction at Grendelsbane did not actually mean that construction would resume the minute the order arrived but it would take several weeks.

Interesting.

The question was asked amongst my circle of friends whether it was fair to place the blame on Houseman, rather than the Admiralty for asking for Houseman's help. I was not aware that Houseman had any military training either.

At any rate, what sort of theories did the Admiralty THINK, COULD have come from the mind of Reginald Houseman that would have been, let alone could have been, enlightening to the Masadans?

Was Houseman a Hail Mary? Or rather a hell Mary being it was the Masadans.

cthia wrote:The question was asked amongst my circle of friends whether it was fair to place the blame on Houseman, rather than the Admiralty for asking for Houseman's help. I was not aware that Houseman had any military training either.

At any rate, what sort of theories did the Admiralty THINK, COULD have come from the mind of Reginald Houseman that would have been, let alone could have been, enlightening to the Masadans?

Was Houseman a Hail Mary? Or rather a hell Mary being it was the Masadans.

Don't confuse his actions as Second Lord of the Admiralty with his actions in HotQ as part of the diplomatic mission to Grayson. The Foreign Office put together the diplomatic mission, not the Admiralty. It is true that it was headed by an Admiral, but Manticore has a tradition of using Admirals as diplomats. Here is what Honor Among Enemies had to say about Houseman (chapter 2):

Not that Houseman was a total idiot. For all his intellectual bigotry, he'd proven a facile and often effective advocate of using private sector incentives to power public economic strategies.

-- snip --

Up until six years before, he'd also been a rising star in the diplomatic service, and he was still called in as an occasional outside consultant

-- snip --

Worse, Houseman, for all his opposition to the current war, regarded himself as a military expert. He considered any use of force proof of failed diplomacy and stupidity, but that didn't keep him from being fascinated—though always, of course, from a safe distance—with the subject. He was quick to proclaim that his interest stemmed solely from the fact that, like a physician, any peace-loving diplomat must study the disease against which he fought, but Hauptman doubted the claim fooled anyone but his fellow idealogues. The truth was that Reginald Houseman was firmly convinced that had he been one of those evil, militarist conquerors like Napoleon Bonaparte or Gustav Anderman—which, thank God, he was not, of course—he would have been far better at it than they had. As it was, his study of the military not only allowed him to enjoy the vicarious thrill of indulging in something evil and decadent out of the highest motives but also gave him a certain standing as one of the Liberal Party's "military experts," and the fact that most Queen's officers, whatever their branch of service, regarded him as an arrant coward didn't faze him in the least. Indeed, he interpreted their contempt as fear-based hostility spawned by how close to home his trenchant criticisms of the military establishment hit.

Six years ago, of course, was the incident at Grayson. Then he was put into the Admiralty as part of the High Ridge government.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:The question was asked amongst my circle of friends whether it was fair to place the blame on Houseman, rather than the Admiralty for asking for Houseman's help. I was not aware that Houseman had any military training either.

At any rate, what sort of theories did the Admiralty THINK, COULD have come from the mind of Reginald Houseman that would have been, let alone could have been, enlightening to the Masadans?

Was Houseman a Hail Mary? Or rather a hell Mary being it was the Masadans.

Don't confuse his actions as Second Lord of the Admiralty with his actions in HotQ as part of the diplomatic mission to Grayson. The Foreign Office put together the diplomatic mission, not the Admiralty. It is true that it was headed by an Admiral, but Manticore has a tradition of using Admirals as diplomats. Here is what Honor Among Enemies had to say about Houseman (chapter 2):

Not that Houseman was a total idiot. For all his intellectual bigotry, he'd proven a facile and often effective advocate of using private sector incentives to power public economic strategies.

-- snip --

Up until six years before, he'd also been a rising star in the diplomatic service, and he was still called in as an occasional outside consultant

-- snip --

Worse, Houseman, for all his opposition to the current war, regarded himself as a military expert. He considered any use of force proof of failed diplomacy and stupidity, but that didn't keep him from being fascinated—though always, of course, from a safe distance—with the subject. He was quick to proclaim that his interest stemmed solely from the fact that, like a physician, any peace-loving diplomat must study the disease against which he fought, but Hauptman doubted the claim fooled anyone but his fellow idealogues. The truth was that Reginald Houseman was firmly convinced that had he been one of those evil, militarist conquerors like Napoleon Bonaparte or Gustav Anderman—which, thank God, he was not, of course—he would have been far better at it than they had. As it was, his study of the military not only allowed him to enjoy the vicarious thrill of indulging in something evil and decadent out of the highest motives but also gave him a certain standing as one of the Liberal Party's "military experts," and the fact that most Queen's officers, whatever their branch of service, regarded him as an arrant coward didn't faze him in the least. Indeed, he interpreted their contempt as fear-based hostility spawned by how close to home his trenchant criticisms of the military establishment hit.

Six years ago, of course, was the incident at Grayson. Then he was put into the Admiralty as part of the High Ridge government.

My point, which was brought up by one of my friends, is that Houseman had never actually been IN the Navy. Some of his relatives were. But an armchair quarterback who has never actually played football should never be expected to excel in either playing or coaching.

Which brings me to another point. How did he actually get to be Second Space Lord? Cronyism?

wiki wrote:The Second Space Lord was one of the Lords of Admiralty who controlled the Royal Manticoran Navy, responsible for handling operational and tactical planning. He or she was also the head of the Office of Naval Intelligence and the Bureau of Planning. (HH3)

How can someone who has never been in the Navy, who never attended or graduated from Saganami Island, let alone the Crusher, be responsible for "tactical planning."

That simply blows my mind too.

And, regardless of his past accomplishments as a diplomat, everyone knew this "religious war" between religious parties would be a whole nother can of worms, and that Houseman was the one person less suited for it. That was known before the trip.

tlb wrote:Then he was put into the Admiralty as part of the High Ridge government.

cthia wrote:My point, which was brought up by one of my friends, is that Houseman had never actually been IN the Navy. Some of his relatives were. But an armchair quarterback who has never actually played football should never be expected to excel in either playing or coaching.

Which brings me to another point. How did he actually get to be Second Space Lord? Cronyism?

How can someone who has never been in the Navy, who never attended or graduated from Saganami Island, let alone the Crusher, be responsible for "tactical planning."

That simply blows my mind too.

Do you really think that High Ridge cared about naval tradition or competence? Of course he was put into that position to produce the economic analyses that the First Lord and the Prime Minister wanted.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Then he was put into the Admiralty as part of the High Ridge government.

cthia wrote:My point, which was brought up by one of my friends, is that Houseman had never actually been IN the Navy. Some of his relatives were. But an armchair quarterback who has never actually played football should never be expected to excel in either playing or coaching.

Which brings me to another point. How did he actually get to be Second Space Lord? Cronyism?

How can someone who has never been in the Navy, who never attended or graduated from Saganami Island, let alone the Crusher, be responsible for "tactical planning."

That simply blows my mind too.

Do you really think that High Ridge cared about naval tradition or competence? Of course he was put into that position to produce the economic analyses that the First Lord and the Prime Minister wanted.

No. Agreed. And now that you and I are on a rare ledge together, and per my friend's sentiment, how can the blame fall squarely on Houseman's shoulders? It seems to my friend (and to me after he first posed the question) that the mission was sabotaged out of the gate.

The honorable Reginald Houseman was simply being true to -- and honorable to -- himself and his own soap box.

It appears that the mission and the Navy wanted Houseman to lie and parrot only what they wanted him to say, and not say what he tuly felt and believed. Was Houseman simply too honorable to do that?

They knew who he was before they attached themselves to his back.

cthia wrote:No. Agreed. And now that you and I are on a rare ledge together, and per my friend's sentiment, how can the blame fall squarely on Houseman's shoulders? It seems to my friend (and to me after he first posed the question) that the mission was sabotaged out of the gate.

The honorable Reginald Houseman was simply being true to -- and honorable to -- himself and his own soap box.

It appears that the mission and the Navy wanted Houseman to lie and parrot only what they wanted him to say, and not say what he tuly felt and believed. Was Houseman simply too honorable to do that?

They knew who he was before they attached themselves to his back.

Stop it, you continue to confuse the mission to Grayson (set up by the Foreign Office before Houseman had made his unsuitability glaringly apparent) and his stint as the Second Lord in the High Ridge government. On the mission to Grayson, he was only intended to talk about economic incentives; where he was highly qualified as the text I presented made clear.

The part that he insisted on talking about (until the actual numbers were presented to him, which finally shut him up) were outside of his area of expertise and not part of his duty to mission. There is no reason to blame the Navy for this, since they did not put this group of people together; that was done by the Foreign Office.