"Testimony of Schueler" Redux

Most42,
I don't believe the Testament of Schueler was his work. The original Writ did not contain the Book of Chihiro nor did it contain the Testament of Schuler. At best Nahrmahn compiled the Testament from facts and insights into Schueler from Khody's journal. At worst he used the least flattering interpretation of everything the simply suspected to be true.

In either case Nahrmahn appeals to Safeholdians need for evidence to support their faith then to some degree betrays it. That bothers me.

Well, considering that the current Writ includes the _Book_ of Schueler, it would be rather surprising if the original version had a Testament, whether genuinely his or not

It occurs to me, very belatedly, that there is a route to the current situation that would in fact have everything in the apparition completely genuine - Schueler's appearance, his words, the book he left behind. Nahrmahn's little effort would then involve arranging the place and time of their presentation. Which you have to admit was downright Nahrmahnical.

What's occurred to me is the possibility that, off-stage, Owl and Narhmahn have cracked the encryption on Paityr's little snow globe, and this is the product of what they found there: either a recording of Schueler's personality, which they were able to recruit [and who then recorded the apparition and wrote the Testament for the purpose of bringing down the Church as expeditiously as possible], or, what I consider the more likely of the two, found the recording and text of the Testament along with code to overwrite the AI running the Temple and have it set up the Apparition - _in_ the Temple itself.

PeterZ wrote:Most42,
I don't believe the Testament of Schueler was his work. The original Writ did not contain the Book of Chihiro nor did it contain the Testament of Schuler. At best Nahrmahn compiled the Testament from facts and insights into Schueler from Khody's journal. At worst he used the least flattering interpretation of everything the simply suspected to be true.

In either case Nahrmahn appeals to Safeholdians need for evidence to support their faith then to some degree betrays it. That bothers me.

PeterZ wrote:Most42,
I don't believe the Testament of Schueler was his work. The original Writ did not contain the Book of Chihiro nor did it contain the Testament of Schuler. At best Nahrmahn compiled the Testament from facts and insights into Schueler from Khody's journal. At worst he used the least flattering interpretation of everything the simply suspected to be true.

In either case Nahrmahn appeals to Safeholdians need for evidence to support their faith then to some degree betrays it. That bothers me.

The original writ contained the Book of Schueler, see OAR chapter 7. It DIDN'T contain the Book of Chihiro.

Regarding the Testament of Schueler, I'll quote a post by rfc from 06/03/2017:

runsforcelery wrote:Next project: the new Safehold book, starting 20-25 years after At the Sign of Triumph (with the discovery of the Lost Testament of Schueler). Projected delivery date, end of November. Publication date, probably second half of 2018.

Could RFC mean something else by "the discovery"? Certainly, but the context of the post says otherwise.

Joat42 wrote:The original writ contained the Book of Schueler, see OAR chapter 7. It DIDN'T contain the Book of Chihiro.

Regarding the Testament of Schueler, I'll quote a post by rfc from 06/03/2017:

runsforcelery wrote:Next project: the new Safehold book, starting 20-25 years after At the Sign of Triumph (with the discovery of the Lost Testament of Schueler). Projected delivery date, end of November. Publication date, probably second half of 2018.

Could RFC mean something else by "the discovery"? Certainly, but the context of the post says otherwise.

Remember that that was written when RFC was thinking about filling in those 20-25 years as flashbacks - an approach that he discarded after 100,000 words and the resultant book was TFT

Louis R wrote:Well, considering that the current Writ includes the _Book_ of Schueler, it would be rather surprising if the original version had a Testament, whether genuinely his or not

It occurs to me, very belatedly, that there is a route to the current situation that would in fact have everything in the apparition completely genuine - Schueler's appearance, his words, the book he left behind. Nahrmahn's little effort would then involve arranging the place and time of their presentation. Which you have to admit was downright Nahrmahnical.

What's occurred to me is the possibility that, off-stage, Owl and Narhmahn have cracked the encryption on Paityr's little snow globe, and this is the product of what they found there: either a recording of Schueler's personality, which they were able to recruit [and who then recorded the apparition and wrote the Testament for the purpose of bringing down the Church as expeditiously as possible], or, what I consider the more likely of the two, found the recording and text of the Testament along with code to overwrite the AI running the Temple and have it set up the Apparition - _in_ the Temple itself.

PeterZ wrote:Most42,
I don't believe the Testament of Schueler was his work. The original Writ did not contain the Book of Chihiro nor did it contain the Testament of Schuler. At best Nahrmahn compiled the Testament from facts and insights into Schueler from Khody's journal. At worst he used the least flattering interpretation of everything the simply suspected to be true.

In either case Nahrmahn appeals to Safeholdians need for evidence to support their faith then to some degree betrays it. That bothers me.

I would agree, but the first conversation between Nahrmahn, OWL and Merlin in TFT asserts that the Key had not been decrypted before they came up with the Nahrmahn Plan. That tells us that the IC planned to do something like the Visitation at the start of TFT before they unlocked the Key.

As I posted several months ago, the IC might not have sanctioned the Visitation. Some other organization might have done it. The SSK comes to mind. However, David's interview suggests pretty conclusively that the entire Visitation was pure Nahrmahn. What that means remains to be seen, but is highly suggestive that the IC did create the Visitation.

I can't quite forget that that interview was given by the same MWW who carefully blocked out a snippet in order to get the whole lot of us morning the passing of Hektor Aplyn-Ahrmahk and speculating on just what sort of holy terror his widow was on the way to becoming.

PeterZ wrote:

Louis R wrote:Well, considering that the current Writ includes the _Book_ of Schueler, it would be rather surprising if the original version had a Testament, whether genuinely his or not

It occurs to me, very belatedly, that there is a route to the current situation that would in fact have everything in the apparition completely genuine - Schueler's appearance, his words, the book he left behind. Nahrmahn's little effort would then involve arranging the place and time of their presentation. Which you have to admit was downright Nahrmahnical.

What's occurred to me is the possibility that, off-stage, Owl and Narhmahn have cracked the encryption on Paityr's little snow globe, and this is the product of what they found there: either a recording of Schueler's personality, which they were able to recruit [and who then recorded the apparition and wrote the Testament for the purpose of bringing down the Church as expeditiously as possible], or, what I consider the more likely of the two, found the recording and text of the Testament along with code to overwrite the AI running the Temple and have it set up the Apparition - _in_ the Temple itself.

I would agree, but the first conversation between Nahrmahn, OWL and Merlin in TFT asserts that the Key had not been decrypted before they came up with the Nahrmahn Plan. That tells us that the IC planned to do something like the Visitation at the start of TFT before they unlocked the Key.

As I posted several months ago, the IC might not have sanctioned the Visitation. Some other organization might have done it. The SSK comes to mind. However, David's interview suggests pretty conclusively that the entire Visitation was pure Nahrmahn. What that means remains to be seen, but is highly suggestive that the IC did create the Visitation.

Yeah, I do recall that. I also recall his snippet was still grammatically correct. It was in the grammar that he tried to obscure Hektor's fate. Yet by reading that grammar properly, one recognized his actual fate. Just as this passage is also accurate.

Any reading of that passage precludes Na he ahh using knowledge from the Key to create the Visitation. He might NOT have created the Visitation, but if he did then the Key was not a source beyond providing the image and voice.

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I do recall that. I also recall his snippet was still grammatically correct. It was in the grammar that he tried to obscure Hektor's fate. Yet by reading that grammar properly, one recognized his actual fate. Just as this passage is also accurate.

Any reading of that passage precludes Na he ahh using knowledge from the Key to create the Visitation. He might NOT have created the Visitation, but if he did then the Key was not a source beyond providing the image and voice.

I have to admit that each time I revisit this forum, I never fail to be impressed by RFC's cunning, especially in this instance! We are no nearer a resolution than when the book thumped down on our door mats.

PS love Louis R's: Paityr's little snow globe

Even without the explicit statement by Himself that it was Nahrman and OWL who were responsible, I'd have been shocked if it turned out to be anything other than a product of Operation Androcles. He writes in a manner where he sets up things before using them rather than introducing things that surprise the reader as well as the characters.

That said, this is a risky gambit because I don't see how they can now safely get to the point of revealing the archangels were merely human. I'm not saying it can't be done, but only that I can't see how they can ever reveal the full truth. The best I can see is if they use a lie behind the lie in the best traditions of Master Traynyr and when it is time to reveal the falsity of both the Writ and the Testimony, they ascribe the Testimony and Vision to a Nahrmanesque virtual personality of Androcles Schueler created by Nahrman and OWL with the personality and characteristics that would cause him to do something like this. But that still strikes me as awfully risky and only worth it if they couldn't think of any other way of initiating the endgame.