January 6th Congressional hearings

munroburton wrote:

n7axw wrote:For one thing your democratic heritage goes a lot deeper than the rest of Europe. You have really gifted the rest of the world with the gift of human freedom.

I realise the UK has had its periods of progressivism, but it's really the nearly unbroken heritage doing the heavy lifting. The House of Lords had parity until 1911 and the House of Commons didn't extend voting rights to all males over 21 until 1918; previously over 40% of those did not have a vote. Women didn't reach electoral equality until 1928.

I'm sorry but having seen this documentary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc ... pendentPOV - I'd say Britain didn't gift anyone anything. Much of the world is still paying for services rendered; it's just become a more sophisticated operation since the peak Queen-and-Empress era.

The real gift of freedom to the world are some of the ideas which went into building America up to what it is today. Your founding fathers' protests at being taxed without being represented gradually led to universal suffrage in lots of places - including the UK, ironically.

The best of those ideas have circled back into reconstructed european nations and hence the EU.

Yeah, but think about it. Far earlier than anyone else, you were challenging the divine right of kings. Parliament started evolving in the late Middle Ages. With the exception of the civil war between the Cavilers and the Round heads, since the Wars of the Roses, it all evolved peacefully.By the time of George the 3rd the king is trying to control things by inserting his own people into Parliament. That went bust with the loss of the colonies. Then it is Britain who most consistently stands against Napoleon's despoticisn being spread across Europe. Then though the 19th century into the 20th, Parliament continues to evolve as the franchise is expanded. It is all something to be proud of, I think.

Then consider the empire. Here in America we got our institutions from you. Guess what happened almost first thing. We set up democratic institutions based on ideas and practices adapted from "Mother England." Everywhere the Empire went British institutions followed. Sometimes they held and sometimes they didn't. But there are some wonderful success stories, the most spectacular being India. Imagine India as a democracy that has lasted 75 years. Given their culture, how probable was that? Then when it was time for the Empire to end, the British Empire ended about as graceful as any empire in history.

Some might think I am looking at Britain through rose colored glasses. I am not. I am well aware of Britain's faults and the little side trips along the way. But that is pretty much beside the point. My goal here was to defend my belief that the British Isles are the modern birthplace of human freedom, both ideals and institutions. And, I suppose I am also explaining why I am an Anglophile.

Don

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The second hearing demonstrated that Trump and his inner circle that Trump and his inner circle knew very well that there was no election fraud and that Biden had been elected as president. He was told that not only by Attorney General Barr, but by many of those surrounding him in the White House.

And although it wasn't part of the hearings, Trump slipped up and admitted it to Bob Woodward who included it in his next book.

The third hearing was postponed and will be rescheduled for a date yet to be determined.

The next day after the third hearing was postponed the fourth hearing focused on the pressure that Trump and Eastman put on Mike Pence to refuse to read out the results of certain states and refer them back to the states for reexamination and a fresh slate of electors. Pence instantly knew this was illegal but sought advice from Dan Quayle. Testifying very slowly and distinctly and sounding a bit like he was having trouble getting it out was very conservative Judge John Luttig who also advised Pence on the matter. It turned out that he had a stammering problem and was trying very hard to make sure that given the importance of what he had to say it got said just right. I thought he was a person of enormous dignity.

Finally, it turns out that Trump was willing to see Pence killed to get his way. The mob was not only planning to kill Pence, but anyone else whom they perceived enemies including Nancy Pelosi.

So it turned out that for a shining moment was a hero despite his less than brave behavior during Trump's presidency.

Judge Luttig pointed out that this is not over. The same bunch who failed this time are going to try again. That is sobering. We're not out of the woods yet.

Next hearing is tomorrow at 1 pm est.

Don

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Next hearing is Thursday June 23rd. I decide to post some impressions while has today's hearing in mind. All the hearings have been powerful. But I thought that today's was the most gut wretching.

The theme today featured the pressure that Trump and his cronies put on election workers ranging all the way that from secretaries of state to poll workers to persuade them to support the big lie. Along with this there was a parallel effort to get legislatures to create alternative sets of electors or even fake electors. Apparently two sets of fake electors we're created and actually submitted to the Senate.

Much of the pressure came from Trump's groupies which came in the form of thousands of phone calls and emails often expressed in terms of vulgarity and threats to all of the witnesses to the extent that one woman had to move out of her home. One of the state house Speakers had to disconnect his phone to get rest at night.

Impressions--

I was very impressed with the Speaker of the Arizona legislature. He was an older man who had a powerful sense of duty and that came through as he gave his testimony. He expressed his devotion to both the law and the constitution to the point where he said that he was convinced that the constitution was divinely inspired. His response to those who called trying to subvert him was "Show me the evidence" (of fraud) but they never did even though they promised that they would. There was no evidence, of course.

I was angriest listening to the experience of those women who were poll workers in Fulton County Georgia. Nobody should have to go through that kind of harassment. They were simply trying to do their duty.

To conclude, with the exception of the poll workers, the witnesses were all Republicans, supporters of Trump who supported him in the 2020 election. Although I am glad to see their integrity, after five years of watching Trump, witnessing his obvious lawlessness and witnessing the corruption he introduced to the Republican Party, how could they be be still supporting him? I admit that question bothers me a lot...

Don

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n7axw wrote:I was angriest listening to the experience of those women who were poll workers in Fulton County Georgia. Nobody should have to go through that kind of harassment. They were simply trying to do their duty.

This is a form of election tampering, harassing poll workers - regardless if takes place during or after the polls. I would like to see people doing this prosecuted.

Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:I was angriest listening to the experience of those women who were poll workers in Fulton County Georgia. Nobody should have to go through that kind of harassment. They were simply trying to do their duty.

This is a form of election tampering, harassing poll workers - regardless if takes place during or after the polls. I would like to see people doing this prosecuted.

Presuming that these people can be identified, by all means...

Don

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n7axw wrote:Presuming that these people can be identified, by all means...

Don

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We all know that some of these people aren't what we would call smart... I do hope they get to nail some of them.