Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

map

The logistics of the SLN's probation

Somebody help me with my disconnect. Hypatia is a founding member. Surely there must be a lot of systems near Hypatia that the SL gobbled up as well. Systems that remain a part of the SL. The SLN cannot be seen in Hypatia, but they have legitimate business in the general vicinity.

Layman's terms
Hypatia has a restraining order out against the SLN. The SLN cannot be seen in Hypatia. But Hypatia is located in the "hood."

It sounds like some of those silly court documents ordering you not to come within 100 feet of your ex-lover when there is only one street leading into the housing area and the street leading to your home technically takes you less than fifty feet from her front door.

SL 2.0

If it wanted to, could the SL pull all of it's trade out of the Haven Sector's bottoms? The League does not need to trade with the entire GA. As a whole, the SL could boycott the entire sector, enact sanctions and trade restrictions when it rises from the ashes. They could even charge exorbitant fees for junction transit.

An economic war
I always thought the SL could wage an economic war with the Haven Sector even in peace time. All kinds of sanctions. The SL is more than just a huge gorilla. The gorilla controls a lot of markets.

cthia wrote:map

The logistics of the SLN's probation

Somebody help me with my disconnect. Hypatia is a founding member. Surely there must be a lot of systems near Hypatia that the SL gobbled up as well. Systems that remain a part of the SL. The SLN cannot be seen in Hypatia, but they have legitimate business in the general vicinity.

Layman's terms
Hypatia has a restraining order out against the SLN. The SLN cannot be seen in Hypatia. But Hypatia is located in the "hood."

It sounds like some of those silly court documents ordering you not to come within 100 feet of your ex-lover when there is only one street leading into the housing area and the street leading to your home technically takes you less than fifty feet from her front door.

SL 2.0

If it wanted to, could the SL pull all of it's trade out of the Haven Sector's bottoms? The League does not need to trade with the entire GA. As a whole, the SL could boycott the entire sector, enact sanctions and trade restrictions when it rises from the ashes. They could even charge exorbitant fees for junction transit.

An economic war
I always thought the SL could wage an economic war with the Haven Sector even in peace time. All kinds of sanctions. The SL is more than just a huge gorilla. The gorilla controls a lot of markets.

The League could pull its trade out of Haven Sector bottoms (which effectively means Manticoran bottoms; as the Andermani don't have anywhere near as extensive a merchant marine and neither does Haven. Of course that would either increase their costs substantially, or else vastly increase their delivery times (which would increase their costs significantly).

The primary reason that most League cargos touch Manticoran hulls at some stage in their journey is that it's faster to ship through the wormhole network and if you're shipping through the wormhole network it's cheaper to pay a Manticoran ship for that leg of the journey than it is to carry the cargo yourself.

But sure, if the League want to pay or, or want to voluntarily continue to shipping disruptions of not using the wormhole network they could absoltely stop shipping on Manticoran hulls. (Mind you, I'm not sure even the new League constitution gives the central government the right to tell private shippers which ships they can use -- but maybe they could slap on a sufficiently high punitive tariff to more than offset the cost savings.

As for "snapping up systems" around Hypatia. That area is so central to League space that they'd either have been part of the original voluntary founding, or they'd be daughter colonies of core member worlds. It's very unlikely the League had to "snap them up"; they'd have happily joined voluntarily ages ago.

But the "restraining order" as you phrase it isn't from Hypatia, it's Honor declaration that SLN units outside of League member systems will be treated as pirates. It just so happens that as a system that's no longer a member of the League that declaration protects Hypatia just as much as it does some little Verge system we've never heard of. So having Fleet units in League member systems near Hypatia / Beowulf is just fine. And I'd assume that a right to be present in member systems implies a right to travel between member systems -- after all national territory doesn't apply in hyper-space. So sending Fleet units to those systems shouldn't violate the "restraining order" as you choose to call it.

But there's just no analogy, in routing between the stars, to having a single street leading to access certain buildings. You can always take a less direct route and swing wide around any system you want to -- there's nothing but space out there. So even if some later offscreen clarification required the SLN to stay X LY away from non-member systems they'd still be able to easily route units between member systems; they'd just need to sometimes adopt an indirect routing.

cthia wrote:map

The logistics of the SLN's probation

Somebody help me with my disconnect. Hypatia is a founding member. Surely there must be a lot of systems near Hypatia that the SL gobbled up as well. Systems that remain a part of the SL. The SLN cannot be seen in Hypatia, but they have legitimate business in the general vicinity.

These maps are extremely generalised.

https://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/e ... ton/323/1/

The sum of it is that star nations aren't great big blobs claiming interstellar space. They're a bunch of islands with those 12-hour and hyper limit+12-minute(3 for wormholes) territorial zones, separated by light-years of empty space which belongs to nobody. An accurate map of star nations would look more like a map of Micronesia, with each mile of sea between islands standing in for a light year of space.

Hypatia isn't a founding member and the early League wasn't a gobbler-up. The OFS we saw was the end product of a very, very long process of mission creep and lack of oversight which took place over most of a millenium:

1165pd: The Solarian League is founded.
~1300s: The Office of Frontier Security is established.
1410: The Eridani Edict is passed, authorising the SLN to take action against indiscrimatory bombarders. It is enforced five times.
~1725: The last major action of the SLN until the 20th century; the Battle of Farley's Crossing takes place.

My guess is that OFS was only mildly corrupt during the 1700s. As nobody stopped them, nor was capable of, they just gradually overreached until they had the modus operandi we see in the 1900s, one much more subtle than Haven's blatant expansionism.

Exactly now is the League 2.0 going to prohibit Member Systems from using Manticore flagged merchant shipping?
It's not like they are going to be Issuing a LACOON II type order.....they don't control a whole bunch of the wormholes we know about and sending SLN ships to actually occupy any non-League worm holes is going to be.....well, intresting and result in brutally short lives from the crews of said ships when the GA shows and has to "demonstrate" that that the Terms that Harrington laid down are going to be enforced.

Then there is that whole having to absorb the higher costs of you want or -more importantly- need to sell and ship goods to the Haven Quad...or out to Silesia, or Talbot. Same about buying stuff and getting it "home". I doubt very much that Manticore would now turn away any SL flagged ship.....they will just charge full rate for ANY Junction use.
Then there is the small problem of so many Trans-stellars hiring/contracting Manticore flagged ships to cover routes.....So if GyNormus Shipping out of the XXL system, charters ships from Manticore MM companies, they will have to drop stops at League worlds that those particular routes serve? And if that is 7 out of the 12 systems that route #456 serves....oh, well, have to find other ships? From where? Anybody remember that "The League" was very short on League only flagged shipping- which made Lacoon I very effective.

How fast can League Members (2.0) and any other shipbuilding systems start (or rather continue since there was going to be a rush for NEW freighters right after Lacoon I started) delivering on NEW construction of any existing Merchant design, let alone start production on new designs.

Sure, there were guaranteed to have been ships starting to enter the SL carry market post Lacoon I but how many? Besides...do you actually see the SL refusing to use any of the GA member merchant marine's ships now. Delays in deliveries, increased prices, premium prices for shipping - which is going to effect both SL based manufacturing and their customers......and if you want to buy something that needs a Junction related wormhole from OUTSIDE the SL...well, it's the SL side of the transition that is going to eat the charges.

Hypatia is what you might call "very annoyed" with the League at this time and probably has started proceeding for legal redress for the LEAGUE coming in and threatening to destroy it's non-planetary infrastructure and the deaths etc in the civilian population from that forced evacuation under the guns of SLN.

And they aren't the ones who actually did have their spaceborn industry and habitats destroyed by SLN.

So Hypatia and so many others are not going to allow SLN into their territory- inside the hyperlimit. How is that going to be enforced......That's what the GA is for.

As far as trade, all of the systems actual touched by Buccaneer are probably going to accept SL flagged merchant shipping though they my not exactly be polite about it. Of course they will want to see their trade get back to pre-war levels and they won't care who's ships SL uses to send Reparations to replaces what SLN destroyed or damaged.

There is a common/generally understood Territorial Limit to Systems- which usually means how far out can you enforce your laws in normal space---yeah, controlling a wormhole closely tied to your system is part of the mix. But if you are the SLN and are going to use hyperspace you MIGHT want to avoid going really close to any non-SL system. Even to route yourself so you don't appear to be making passes too close to a system you are not supposed to show up in.

At this point, we can imagine Kingsford having the "soft parts and career" of any SLN ship's captain who goes to a place he should not be and being found out. Quite possibly to include as far down the chain of command of said ship he thinks it prudent to make it clear that subordinates should have "reminded" the captain that what he was doing was prohibited (on pain of being shot on sight by the GA)

Brigade XO wrote:So Hypatia and so many others are not going to allow SLN into their territory- inside the hyperlimit. How is that going to be enforced......That's what the GA is for.

Legally, this is easy. Warships do not have free right of passage to a system that is not theirs. They can only come into the territorial "waters" at the invitation of the host polity, unless they declare an emergency, in which case the host system is obliged to render assistance. If they come into the territorial volume uninvited or under false pretences, it's at a minimum a diplomatic incident, possibly an act of war.

And the SLN will not want to initiate a war against the GA for the next 15-20 years at a minimum.

Jonathan_S wrote:[
But the "restraining order" as you phrase it isn't from Hypatia, it's Honor declaration that SLN units outside of League member systems will be treated as pirates. It just so happens that as a system that's no longer a member of the League that declaration protects Hypatia just as much as it does some little Verge system we've never heard of. So having Fleet units in League member systems near Hypatia / Beowulf is just fine. And I'd assume that a right to be present in member systems implies a right to travel between member systems -- after all national territory doesn't apply in hyper-space. So sending Fleet units to those systems shouldn't violate the "restraining order" as you choose to call it.

But there's just no analogy, in routing between the stars, to having a single street leading to access certain buildings. You can always take a less direct route and swing wide around any system you want to -- there's nothing but space out there. So even if some later offscreen clarification required the SLN to stay X LY away from non-member systems they'd still be able to easily route units between member systems; they'd just need to sometimes adopt an indirect routing.

Well there's also the 12 light-hour rule, warships are:

legally required to repond to the challenges and requests for identification of any star nation once they crossed its "twelve-hour" limit. They were also legally required to acknowledge and obey any lawful instructions they received from that star nation, even if the star nation in question were some dinky little single-system neobarb in the back of beyond. They were normally granted at least some leeway in exactly how quickly they responded, but they were still supposed to honor their legal obligations in a reasonably timely fashion.

So the SLN is still permitted to 'visit' Hypatia insofar as the 12 hour limit and they, technically, haven't approached Hypatian space. They'd still be in effectively international space, and if they have ANY ships that still have legitimate trading reasons to be visiting Hypatia, the SLN rightfully is able to argue that they still have a right to 'escort' their merchies.


But closing inside the 12-hour limit, the Hypatians would have really good reason to respectfully nudge and remind any Manticoran squadron undoubtedly stationed there full-time about 'the nasty pirates in the area'. Repeat with any other nations who got absolutely dunked on by Operation Buccaneer and requested naval protection by the GA.

Somtaaw wrote:So the SLN is still permitted to 'visit' Hypatia insofar as the 12 hour limit and they, technically, haven't approached Hypatian space. They'd still be in effectively international space, and if they have ANY ships that still have legitimate trading reasons to be visiting Hypatia, the SLN rightfully is able to argue that they still have a right to 'escort' their merchies.

Up until the 12-light-hour limit, sure. They are not implicitly allowed inside that range, including closer to the hyperlimit. In practice, I expect that there s some leeway because no one translates 12 light-hours away and makes that trip in n-space, nor could they provide protection from that far. I suppose that an escort ship would translate with their merchies down to n-space, advise the local authorities it has arrived and will be departing as soon as they are sure the merchant is safely under the protection of the host system.

This is probably an exceptional case, though. If this trade route is common and requires escort to the hyperlimit, then the two governments had better agree on the escort being allowed closer in and some refueling and resupply, or find another escort that would be acceptable to both parties.

Somtaaw wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But the "restraining order" as you phrase it isn't from Hypatia, it's Honor declaration that SLN units outside of League member systems will be treated as pirates. It just so happens that as a system that's no longer a member of the League that declaration protects Hypatia just as much as it does some little Verge system we've never heard of. So having Fleet units in League member systems near Hypatia / Beowulf is just fine. And I'd assume that a right to be present in member systems implies a right to travel between member systems -- after all national territory doesn't apply in hyper-space. So sending Fleet units to those systems shouldn't violate the "restraining order" as you choose to call it.

But there's just no analogy, in routing between the stars, to having a single street leading to access certain buildings. You can always take a less direct route and swing wide around any system you want to -- there's nothing but space out there. So even if some later offscreen clarification required the SLN to stay X LY away from non-member systems they'd still be able to easily route units between member systems; they'd just need to sometimes adopt an indirect routing.

Well there's also the 12 light-hour rule, warships are:

legally required to repond to the challenges and requests for identification of any star nation once they crossed its "twelve-hour" limit. They were also legally required to acknowledge and obey any lawful instructions they received from that star nation, even if the star nation in question were some dinky little single-system neobarb in the back of beyond. They were normally granted at least some leeway in exactly how quickly they responded, but they were still supposed to honor their legal obligations in a reasonably timely fashion.

So the SLN is still permitted to 'visit' Hypatia insofar as the 12 hour limit and they, technically, haven't approached Hypatian space. They'd still be in effectively international space, and if they have ANY ships that still have legitimate trading reasons to be visiting Hypatia, the SLN rightfully is able to argue that they still have a right to 'escort' their merchies.


But closing inside the 12-hour limit, the Hypatians would have really good reason to respectfully nudge and remind any Manticoran squadron undoubtedly stationed there full-time about 'the nasty pirates in the area'. Repeat with any other nations who got absolutely dunked on by Operation Buccaneer and requested naval protection by the GA.

Normally yes. But given the GA prohibition again operating SLN units outside their own member systems I suspect that trying to operate units near the Hypatia 12-hour limit wouldn't work out well for the SLN...

They wouldn't be violating Hypatian territorial space -- but they would clearly be operating outside their member systems (and not directly in transit between member systems) which would seem to put them afoul of Honor's declaration.




Also -- that 12 hour limit is a bit weird in the first place. It's effectively not enforced in hyper because nobody tries to maintain sensors or patrols there -- so a ship hovering in hyper wouldn't be noticed or challenged; and so for all practical purposes there is no territorial space in hyper. Therefore a warship would effectively only be within the 12-hour limit if it dropped out of hyper within 6 light-hours of that system's star[1]. And in most systems there's little reason to drop out anywhere between 6 LH and the hyper limit. Okay, you might be visiting an orbital mining facility, or something at one of the gas giants; but you'd be challenged when leaving hyper; not when crossing into the 12-hour bubble.

It isn't even a good fit for escorting a freighter convoy. No freighter is going to want to drop out of hyper 6 LH away; not when they could pop out of hyper near the hyper limit and so drastically shorten the trip. But an escorting warship can't emerge with then at < 1 LH; not without permission. But if they peel off and stay outside 6 LH then they can't provide any production as their freighters enter or leave the system. Heck, even if the freighters do drop out beyond 6 LH, unless the escort gets permission to come with them at least to the hyper limit the warships still can't provide protection.

About the only use for it is it defines a distance at which you're legally allowed to place pickets, in normal space, trying to observe someone else's system. (Such as the destroyers keeping an eye on the Peep base at Seaford 9 near the beginning of Short Victorious War)

But since there's no other reason to be in normal space just beyond 6 LH from the star it's odd they made territorial waters so small. After all, except for allowing military surveillance it hardly matters if the ID zone is 6 LH or 2 LY - since ships normally pop out of hyper within 1 LH of the primary.

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[1] https://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/e ... ton/323/0/ clarifies that the 12-hour limit is a 12 lighthour across bubble; so a 6 LH radius.

Jonathan_S wrote:It isn't even a good fit for escorting a freighter convoy. No freighter is going to want to drop out of hyper 6 LH away; not when they could pop out of hyper near the hyper limit and so drastically shorten the trip. But an escorting warship can't emerge with then at < 1 LH; not without permission. But if they peel off and stay outside 6 LH then they can't provide any production as their freighters enter or leave the system. Heck, even if the freighters do drop out beyond 6 LH, unless the escort gets permission to come with them at least to the hyper limit the warships still can't provide protection.

About the only use for it is it defines a distance at which you're legally allowed to place pickets, in normal space, trying to observe someone else's system. (Such as the destroyers keeping an eye on the Peep base at Seaford 9 near the beginning of Short Victorious War)

Well nothing says merchy 'escorts' have to be dropping out of hyper alongside their charges, although for practical reasons you wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Seaford is basically exactly what I was thinking of too, that and Crandall at Spindle who DID breach the limit and then ignored Spindle Command for 18-ish hours. Specifically that while Sarnow was in favor of thickening their pickets, Parks and that other Admiral were almost rabidly against it because it would be borderline illegal and raising the stakes.

The SLN could use that same argument for the 12 hour limit, it just may not work out as well as they'd like however. But that's still the very best way to try goading the GA into overstepping legalities, assuming they'd like to sway public opinion from various neutral entities. Legally even the GA cannot claim SLN units, that are 6 to 12 light-hours out from the star, are 'pirates' because no merchy is ever that far out to begin with, like you said.


If the GA responds to them being beyond the 12 hour limit, they look like the aggressors against the 'innocent' SLN. If they don't respond to it, the SLN would be emboldened to continue nibbling ever closer, until either they're arriving at the very edge of the hyper limit with the merchy they are "escorting to protect Solarian interests" or they in fact do start getting shot up. At which time the whole plan backfires because the laws cover GA actions because within 12 hours is their space, and the SLN was already publicly designated pirates if found there.


Aside from Kingsford, the Ghost Hunters, and a few like them, almost every other example of an officer in the SLN hasn't been very good, so the odds of them TRYING this or something much like it, are a lot higher than a Navy that has a functional IQ as a perquisite to the rank.