Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't doubt that, in fact I agree. Responsible adults can work things out. It is the one time that it doesn't work out that can kick-start a war. Like when the RMN was operating in Andermani Space. It is that irresponsible adult that causes a problem.

Stupidity is the best character trait to have when one wants to screw up by the numbers.

When did a war almost start because the RMN was operating in Andermani space? The incident in War of Honor occurred in Silesia, but perhaps you had something else in mind.

Oops! You are right, it was Silesia. That big mess with Jessica Epps and Helbarde.

I keep crossing those wires with the excursion Honor took thru Andermani Space as a shortcut. There could have been a misunderstanding then. In fact, that is one reason Honor revealed her secret. In order to prevent any of those misunderstandings.

But my point is that those kinds of moments only require the smallest of molehills to start a war. It begins with stupidity. Boredom. Arrogance and hatred.

PS To be clear, I am not saying a war almost started over the Jessica Epps incident. I am fingering that event as the type of catalyst that is needed for war, if stupidity is present. And that is without ever needing to go all-out Byngy.

cthia wrote:I keep crossing those wires with the excursion Honor took thru Andermani Space as a shortcut. There could have been a misunderstanding then. In fact, that is one reason Honor revealed her secret. In order to prevent any of those misunderstandings.

Honor did not reveal any secrets in Honor Among Enemies; Chien-lu Anderman, Herzog von Rabenstrange, already knew everything about her mission and was prepared to support it.

But again you may be thinking of the visit during War of Honor when she revealed the pulser built into her arm; as a way of showing good faith.

Your point about misunderstandings that can lead to war is valid; however a look at history seems to indicate that people often go to war because of misunderstandings about their capabilities, not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies. A book example is the Peoples' Republic of Haven going to war with Manticore.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I keep crossing those wires with the excursion Honor took thru Andermani Space as a shortcut. There could have been a misunderstanding then. In fact, that is one reason Honor revealed her secret. In order to prevent any of those misunderstandings.

Honor did not reveal any secrets in Honor Among Enemies; Chien-lu Anderman, Herzog von Rabenstrange, already knew everything about her mission and was prepared to support it.

But again you may be thinking of the visit during War of Honor when she revealed the pulser built into her arm; as a way of showing good faith.

It wasn't just to show good faith, was it? Didn't Honor realize that the pulser could be detected later on? In which case it COULD have also led to a misunderstanding.

tlb wrote:Your point about misunderstandings that can lead to war is valid; however a look at history seems to indicate that people often go to war because of misunderstandings about their capabilities, [cut]

I certainly can agree with that, however, I think that is ALWAYS the case. Do we ever really know the true capabilities of our enemies? Do they really know ours? Do we truly even realize our own true capabilities? Besides, when it is a matter of life or death, will capabilities even matter in the decision of whether to go to war?

What people don't realize is that "go to war" is a very broad term. Currently it could mean attacking one's computers, hacking, biological warfare, espionage, terrorist attacks, attacks on democracy. These tactics somewhat level the playing field.

At any rate, people go to war because they have been wronged, or they feel they have been wronged, threatened, or because their enemy is cruel, heartless, expansionistic or just plain evil, or malignant, or simply because they are human or ...

tlb wrote:[continued] not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies. A book example is the Peoples' Republic of Haven going to war with Manticore.

That is simply not true. In fact, the war with the MAlign is a HUGE example of going to war with an enemy whose ambitions you haven't got a clue. It happens a lot. Were Hitler's ambitions ever truly known by the Allied Forces?

In fact, were Haven's or the League's or the Andermani's ambitions ever really known?

For that matter, I am unsure if Grayson or Masada knew each other's real ambitions. I think they only knew that each of them wanted the other dead.

The misunderstanding of an enemy at his core is what psychologists and philosophists think leads to war. It is our unwillingness and impossibility of getting to know one another that leads to war. That is the prevailing synopsis anyway. That is why Houseman couldn't understand that there was only one way to bury the hatchet between Grayson and Masada.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:you may be thinking of the visit during War of Honor when she revealed the pulser built into her arm; as a way of showing good faith.

It wasn't just to show good faith, was it? Didn't Honor realize that the pulser could be detected later on? In which case it COULD have also led to a misunderstanding.

In fact she was quite sure that it wouldn't be detectable by them. (Though, yes, if she'd be wrong and it had been detected it would have led to an incident -- but that wasn't part of her thinking that we're given)

War of Honor wrote:She doubted very much that even Imperial Andermani security agents would have been able to spot the weapon built into her arm. She'd certainly paid enough to be certain no one could, at any rate! And she'd had Palace Security test it for her back on Manticore. So she'd just demonstrated that she could have brought a weapon into Rabenstrange's presence if she'd really wanted to . . . and that she took her solemn promise not to do any such thing seriously. And that she wanted Rabenstrange to know she'd done both of those things.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:you may be thinking of the visit during War of Honor when she revealed the pulser built into her arm; as a way of showing good faith.

It wasn't just to show good faith, was it? Didn't Honor realize that the pulser could be detected later on? In which case it COULD have also led to a misunderstanding.

Jonathan_S wrote:In fact she was quite sure that it wouldn't be detectable by them. (Though, yes, if she'd be wrong and it had been detected it would have led to an incident -- but that wasn't part of her thinking that we're given)

War of Honor wrote:She doubted very much that even Imperial Andermani security agents would have been able to spot the weapon built into her arm. She'd certainly paid enough to be certain no one could, at any rate! And she'd had Palace Security test it for her back on Manticore. So she'd just demonstrated that she could have brought a weapon into Rabenstrange's presence if she'd really wanted to . . . and that she took her solemn promise not to do any such thing seriously. And that she wanted Rabenstrange to know she'd done both of those things.

Thanks for the textev. I mentioned somewhere in another thread that even if the hidden pulser was not discovered then but discovered - even years later - through the grapevine or because Honor had to use it in the most visible of places may taint her trustworthiness in the eyes of the Andermani.

tlb wrote:Your point about misunderstandings that can lead to war is valid; however a look at history seems to indicate that people often go to war because of misunderstandings about their capabilities, not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies. A book example is the Peoples' Republic of Haven going to war with Manticore.

cthia wrote:That is simply not true. In fact, the war with the MAlign is a HUGE example of going to war with an enemy whose ambitions you haven't got a clue. It happens a lot. Were Hitler's ambitions ever truly known by the Allied Forces?

You were saying "MISUNDERSTOOD"; finding yourself at war with an enemy that you did not know existed is NOT an an example of a misunderstanding.

Quite aside from the current example, Russia going to war with Finland is another example of the misunderstanding of an opponent's capabilities; Russia did not misunderstand their motivations, Russia simply thought that it did not matter.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Your point about misunderstandings that can lead to war is valid; however a look at history seems to indicate that people often go to war because of misunderstandings about their capabilities, not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies. A book example is the Peoples' Republic of Haven going to war with Manticore.

cthia wrote:That is simply not true. In fact, the war with the MAlign is a HUGE example of going to war with an enemy whose ambitions you haven't got a clue. It happens a lot. Were Hitler's ambitions ever truly known by the Allied Forces?

You were saying "MISUNDERSTOOD"; finding yourself at war with an enemy that you did not know existed is NOT an an example of a misunderstanding.

Quite aside from the current example, Russia going to war with Finland is another example of the misunderstanding of an opponent's capabilities; Russia did not misunderstand their motivations, Russia simply thought that it did not matter.

You said "not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies."

The GA had/has absolutely no idea about the ambitions of this hidden enemy, even now that they know they exist.

tlb wrote:Your point about misunderstandings that can lead to war is valid; however a look at history seems to indicate that people often go to war because of misunderstandings about their capabilities, not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies. A book example is the Peoples' Republic of Haven going to war with Manticore.

cthia wrote:That is simply not true. In fact, the war with the MAlign is a HUGE example of going to war with an enemy whose ambitions you haven't got a clue. It happens a lot. Were Hitler's ambitions ever truly known by the Allied Forces?

tlb wrote:You were saying "MISUNDERSTOOD"; finding yourself at war with an enemy that you did not know existed is NOT an an example of a misunderstanding.

Quite aside from the current example, Russia going to war with Finland is another example of the misunderstanding of an opponent's capabilities; Russia did not misunderstand their motivations, Russia simply thought that it did not matter.

cthia wrote:You said "not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies."

The GA had/has absolutely no idea about the ambitions of this hidden enemy, even now that they know they exist.

If you would actually read what I wrote, I started by saying your point about misunderstandings (of intentions) was valid. I then stated my reading of history was that wars were at least as often started because someone misunderstood their enemy's capabilities: for example PRH vs Manticore or Russia vs Finland.

Whether or not the Grand Alliance might now understand the Malign's intentions and ambitions (I believe they now know enough), the war you give as an example was started long before any member of the Grand Alliance knew about the Malign's existence; therefore that war was not started because of a misunderstanding of intentions, almost by definition.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Your point about misunderstandings that can lead to war is valid; however a look at history seems to indicate that people often go to war because of misunderstandings about their capabilities, not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies. A book example is the Peoples' Republic of Haven going to war with Manticore.

cthia wrote:That is simply not true. In fact, the war with the MAlign is a HUGE example of going to war with an enemy whose ambitions you haven't got a clue. It happens a lot. Were Hitler's ambitions ever truly known by the Allied Forces?

tlb wrote:You were saying "MISUNDERSTOOD"; finding yourself at war with an enemy that you did not know existed is NOT an an example of a misunderstanding.

Quite aside from the current example, Russia going to war with Finland is another example of the misunderstanding of an opponent's capabilities; Russia did not misunderstand their motivations, Russia simply thought that it did not matter.

cthia wrote:You said "not because of any misunderstandings about the ambitions of their enemies."

The GA had/has absolutely no idea about the ambitions of this hidden enemy, even now that they know they exist.

If you would actually read what I wrote, I started by saying your point about misunderstandings (of intentions) was valid. I then stated my reading of history was that wars were at least as often started because someone misunderstood their enemy's capabilities: for example PRH vs Manticore or Russia vs Finland.

I responded by agreeing with that, and added that that is almost always the case, and that it won't ever matter when ones back is against the wall and they feel they have no choice.

tlb wrote:Whether or not the Grand Alliance might now understand the Malign's intentions and ambitions (I believe they now know enough), the war you give as an example was started long before any member of the Grand Alliance knew about the Malign's existence; therefore that war was not started because of a misunderstanding of intentions, almost by definition.

I don't think they know nearly enough about the MAlign design. Do you really believe that? I suppose I could have missed something, but if the GA is not aware of the MA's Hitler-like plans to "govern" the entire Galaxy, then they don't know diddly squat.

I can't agree with the rest because the MA started the war without knowing the ambitions of any of its enemies. After laboring so long in hiding, Detweiler never bothered to take his concerns to the Galaxy at large. We discussed many times that the Galaxy may have embraced his work after the fact. Not his plans of domination, but the Galaxy may have embraced the fruits of his labor. Not the methods of how he arrived there, but certainly the accomplishments.

At any rate, I don't rightly refer to Oyster Bay as a war. It was a slaughtering sneak attack. It started a war, yes, but neither side was truly aware of anything about the other. Certainly not of the other's true ambitions.

Think about it, even Honor's attack of Galton was without her knowing Galton's ambitions or intentions. In fact, apparently it was a misunderstanding and the wrong enemy.

cthia wrote:At any rate, I don't rightly refer to Oyster Bay as a war. It was a slaughtering sneak attack. It started a war, yes, but neither side was truly aware of anything about the other. Certainly not of the other's true ambitions.

Think about it, even Honor's attack of Galton was without her knowing Galton's ambitions or intentions. In fact, apparently it was a misunderstanding and the wrong enemy.

The Yawata Strike (or Oyster Bay) was the start of the overt war and did not result from any misunderstanding by Manticore. Whether the Malign had misunderstandings at that point is almost irrelevant, since for it the war had started centuries earlier.

Galton is only a misunderstanding for those that believe the threat is ended. However is was NOT the wrong enemy; is was a extremely important production site for the Malign and its loss will put a major crimp in future plans (or not according to the whim of the author).