OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

Either an absurd amount of energy or some mechanism nobody has seriously considered, didn't consider at all or otherwise sidesteps the defenses.

I'm suspect that getting access to the hardware and software would be needed for this. Essentially you would need to get the receiver to process the signal you are sending as an admin command. For example, zeroizing all the crypto and caller configuration wouldn't do damage to the system, but it might still get everyone killed when your integrated missile defenses systems collapses, you lose all your recon drones, you can't send update to your missiles and the flagship can no longer communicate with anyone.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:I expect that a good part of the 14 minutes, aside from distance, is that each pod must be individually addressed in the absence of Mycroft. Whether directly to the pod or indirectly with the use of a Hermes buoy, is a quibble that cannot be answered.

You may have a point tlb. The 14 minutes IS rather significant, and it makes me wish for details of not only why it took so long, but also what amount of time the same process would normally require with Mycroft intact.

But I always thought the instructions were sent directly to the MK-23E "COMMAND" missile, and then the command missile disseminated the commands to its brood. That would only require one channel of checking / error-checking in FTL.

Yet, if each pod had to be tended to separately, that would certainly be time consuming. EOF receipt, error checking, bit checking of the data to each pod with ever changing distance.

Has anyone noted that if jamming IS possible, and if the LDs can reproduce what the MA did at Beowulf, and then jam the launch...

We've seen large, dispersed clouds of Pods fired in several systems (Zanzibar, for example had clouds in the inner system and dispersed around it's asteroid belt.) I think the reason the 14 minutes happened at Beowulf (in story, that is)was hubris - no back up was considered for that part of the system, because FTL is so wonderful - hence the need for independent targeting.

Chances that will be fixed in the VERY near future after Beowulf - Old defense systems and Shipborne systems do not have that issue, so a little programming update will probably resolve the problem, with an auto fallback feature, or a targeting pass chain, since the ACMs do mesh.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Maybe. But.

First, let me reiterate that the jamming could take place in the form of actually frying components, receivers. I would imagine the FTL receivers are really sensitive and are just not hardened against that type of attack, because that type of attack might not be expected, and getting a platform planted up your posterior certainly won't be expected.

<snip>.

Fleets of 100s wedges that move starships (at point blank range) don't burn out Gravitonics - Grav lances (focused on a target sufficient to reset sidewall generators) don't burn out Gravitonics - what would you build that is more powerful than a wedge ot Grav lance that you are going to fit into a 5000 ton chassis with a spider drive and Reactor which will burn out Gravitonics? Remember, a Grav lance takes an 88,000 Ton Light Cruiser to work (Minus it's weapons).

Of course you very well may be right. However, wedges must remain at a certain distance apart or burning out the gravitonics will be the least of their worries. But a stealthy platform may be able to get in much closer than a wedge. Maybe. And the "attack" (as TM said it is an attack) will be directed.

At any rate, the MA has done some work with FTL themselves, and they may have observed something that could throw a monkey wrench into the mix. Perhaps certain highly directed frequencies from close range could fry the receivers. ::grasping::

cthia wrote:Of course you very well may be right. However, wedges must remain at a certain distance apart or burning out the gravitonics will be the least of their worries. But a stealthy platform may be able to get in much closer than a wedge. Maybe. And the "attack" (as TM said it is an attack) will be directed.

At any rate, the MA has done some work with FTL themselves, and they may have observed something that could throw a monkey wrench into the mix. Perhaps certain highly directed frequencies from close range could fry the receivers. ::grasping::

I'll note that a ship's normal FTL sensors - its Warshaski detectors - are designed to operate quite well while literally flying through grav disturbances strong enough to immediately tear apart any ship not stabilized by a sail. (And those grav disturbances create powerful FTL signals because that's how Warshaski detectors detect grav waves as you approach them). Not only do the Warshaskis remain undamaged, they're able to see through that FTL noise out to see other ships' sails out to a useful distance (IIRC several lightminutes).

If a grav wave at 0 meters isn't enough FTL noise to damage receiver, or jam them sufficiently to prevent ships from communicating via FTL, I seriously doubt any manmade jammer could do so. It's possible that the transceivers for Keyhole II & ACM aren't quite as robust; as they don't need to operate in a grav wave; but I still suspect they're going to be undamaged by any ripple one can artificially induce in the hyper wall.

But we'll see where RFC chooses to take the tech.

Theemile wrote:We've seen large, dispersed clouds of Pods fired in several systems (Zanzibar, for example had clouds in the inner system and dispersed around it's asteroid belt.) I think the reason the 14 minutes happened at Beowulf (in story, that is)was hubris - no back up was considered for that part of the system, because FTL is so wonderful - hence the need for independent targeting.

Well, they had backup... it was the other Mycrofts. What no one expected was to need a backup to the backup to the backup.

It's like a 747 losing all four engines at the same time. Though it has happened.

cthia wrote:Of course you very well may be right. However, wedges must remain at a certain distance apart or burning out the gravitonics will be the least of their worries. But a stealthy platform may be able to get in much closer than a wedge. Maybe. And the "attack" (as TM said it is an attack) will be directed.

Closer than another wedge? You mean inside the wedge of the target ship? Where it can probably be seen with a naked eye, if the ship had portholes where you could use eyeballs to look out of? That's pushing the limits of stealth A LOT.

I'd expect that a EMP-like weapon to have a range similar to a boom-mode nuclear missile. That's far, far shorter than any stealth has a right to be, for all we know of the Honorverse tech. Not even the SLN would be fooled by it.

And besides, if you can get a weapons platform within 5000 km of the target and it has this much power available, just shoot the target with it. If you channel all that power into a narrow beam of coherent EM radiation in the gamma-ray range, you've got a bomb-pumped graser.

At any rate, the MA has done some work with FTL themselves, and they may have observed something that could throw a monkey wrench into the mix. Perhaps certain highly directed frequencies from close range could fry the receivers. ::grasping::

Sure. That sounds like an FTL laser. We know the FTL grav comms are directional; laser-light is the next step.

It's also possible that the MAlign will stumble upon this, as they take the path not previously taken, like Grayson did with compensators. It's far more likely that those with first mover advantage and a much bigger R&D budget will get there first, though.

Musings about the use 'em or lose 'em status of deployed pods in another thread prompted a question here.

Since the advent of Apollo, communication with the launch is normally maintained after the initial link is established according to textev. My question, even before Apollo, has always been why this use 'em or lose 'em status exists.

If there are deployed pods and an incoming launch is upon you, why wouldn't you go ahead and launch the missiles at the enemy and establish communication later? It makes me sure that my notion of the first third of a salvo's flight path is indeed the most important.

cthia wrote:If there are deployed pods and an incoming launch is upon you, why wouldn't you go ahead and launch the missiles at the enemy and establish communication later? It makes me sure that my notion of the first third of a salvo's flight path is indeed the most important.

Control channels. I do agree they should be launched if they're going to be lost, but it's going to be blind fire.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:If there are deployed pods and an incoming launch is upon you, why wouldn't you go ahead and launch the missiles at the enemy and establish communication later? It makes me sure that my notion of the first third of a salvo's flight path is indeed the most important.

Control channels. I do agree they should be launched if they're going to be lost, but it's going to be blind fire.

Control channels can't be established after the incoming salvo? Just roll back down and establish the links. In the pre-Apollo era it may not have been possible, or a given, but with Apollo why would it be impossible?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Of course you very well may be right. However, wedges must remain at a certain distance apart or burning out the gravitonics will be the least of their worries. But a stealthy platform may be able to get in much closer than a wedge. Maybe. And the "attack" (as TM said it is an attack) will be directed.

Closer than another wedge? You mean inside the wedge of the target ship? Where it can probably be seen with a naked eye, if the ship had portholes where you could use eyeballs to look out of? That's pushing the limits of stealth A LOT.

I'd expect that a EMP-like weapon to have a range similar to a boom-mode nuclear missile. That's far, far shorter than any stealth has a right to be, for all we know of the Honorverse tech. Not even the SLN would be fooled by it.

Except for the MA's smart material. You can't see it with the naked eye if it is oriented correctly towards you. In the heat of battle, it can be missed. Who is going to be looking out of a port anyway during battle.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And besides, if you can get a weapons platform within 5000 km of the target and it has this much power available, just shoot the target with it. If you channel all that power into a narrow beam of coherent EM radiation in the gamma-ray range, you've got a bomb-pumped graser.

Indeed, but that will only destroy a single target, when the aim is to destroy an entire launch.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:At any rate, the MA has done some work with FTL themselves, and they may have observed something that could throw a monkey wrench into the mix. Perhaps certain highly directed frequencies from close range could fry the receivers. ::grasping::

Sure. That sounds like an FTL laser. We know the FTL grav comms are directional; laser-light is the next step.

It's also possible that the MAlign will stumble upon this, as they take the path not previously taken, like Grayson did with compensators. It's far more likely that those with first mover advantage and a much bigger R&D budget will get there first, though.

Stumbling upon a solution is what I am thinking, along with one of my favorite notions. Providence.

A lot of the MA's weapons work because of their stealth. Indeed, a lot of their solutions and tactics work because of their stealth. If they "stumble" upon a solution that can jam FTL from close range, it might not even be something that the RMN are unaware of - but are aware of - yet dismissed the application eons ago because it would require getting a platform with enormous energy insanely close. "Aw, that could never happen." Lots of solutions that are not available to wedge-based technology that could surely never get but so close, might be available to spider driven tech.