The Masadan attack on Yeltsin

I was just re-listening to The Honor of the Queen when I noticed something "new" to me.

When Masada launched its final assault on Yeltsin with Thunder of God... why didn't MNS Virtue accompany her... I mean, him.

While Thunder has probably 50 times the muscle of an MSN destroyer, it would have given them another unit to either support the attack or at least observe it.

Clearly, it isn't a case of leaving someone behind in Endicott to watch home, since the entire Masadan navy was already in Yeltsin and they were expecting Thunder to join them.

The Masadans seem to have been about 70%-ish of the original crew of Thunder - plus any Havenite prisoners forced to work for them, as they planned for before the mutiny.

About the only reason I could see for leaving he... him, behind would be that they'd so raided Virtue's crew for warm bodies to bring up Thunder's crew that Virtue was no longer sufficiently crewed to be combat effective.

Still... I'd think even Sword Simonds would be bright enough to realize having a second ship would be a good idea. Having more units in Yeltsin was the whole reason they towed the semi-useless LACs there, after all.

Dahak wrote:About the only reason I could see for leaving he... him, behind would be that they'd so raided Virtue's crew for warm bodies to bring up Thunder's crew that Virtue was no longer sufficiently crewed to be combat effective.

I can think of another reason: someone in Masada had to try catching Captain Yu's pinnaces.

Dahak wrote:Still... I'd think even Sword Simonds would be bright enough to realize having a second ship would be a good idea. Having more units in Yeltsin was the whole reason they towed the semi-useless LACs there, after all.

IIRC, that was a ruse. The Masadans' true reason for massing at Blackbird was to buy time for Jared Mayhew to carry out a coup. Until the failure of that coup and subsequent loss of their navy, the Masadans were trying to produce a victory without leaning too heavily upon Havenite assistance, probably so they could weasel out of hosting a PN fleet base substantial enough to attack the Manticoran System.

munroburton wrote:I can think of another reason: someone in Masada had to try catching Captain Yu's pinnaces.

Perhaps, but the Masadans still had two LACs to do that while Virtue could have been assisting Thunder of God in Yeltsin.

munroburton wrote:IIRC, that was a ruse. The Masadans' true reason for massing at Blackbird was to buy time for Jared Mayhew to carry out a coup. Until the failure of that coup and subsequent loss of their navy, the Masadans were trying to produce a victory without leaning too heavily upon Havenite assistance, probably so they could weasel out of hosting a PN fleet base substantial enough to attack the Manticoran System.

They may have been trying to avoid relying on Havenite assistance, but Havenite assistance was all that made Jericho possible. Even if Masada took Yeltsin, without the Manty relief force, all that would have happened in the end is that Haven would have seized Endicott and Yeltsin.

The near-superstitious dread they felt about the Grayson Navy after their last war and Yu's "overestimation" of Jericho's effectiveness should have made Sword Simonds - and/or the Elders - require Virtue to at least be present, even after they'd seized Thunder.

Dahak wrote:

munroburton wrote:I can think of another reason: someone in Masada had to try catching Captain Yu's pinnaces.

Perhaps, but the Masadans still had two LACs to do that while Virtue could have been assisting Thunder of God in Yeltsin.

munroburton wrote:IIRC, that was a ruse. The Masadans' true reason for massing at Blackbird was to buy time for Jared Mayhew to carry out a coup. Until the failure of that coup and subsequent loss of their navy, the Masadans were trying to produce a victory without leaning too heavily upon Havenite assistance, probably so they could weasel out of hosting a PN fleet base substantial enough to attack the Manticoran System.

They may have been trying to avoid relying on Havenite assistance, but Havenite assistance was all that made Jericho possible. Even if Masada took Yeltsin, without the Manty relief force, all that would have happened in the end is that Haven would have seized Endicott and Yeltsin.

The near-superstitious dread they felt about the Grayson Navy after their last war and Yu's "overestimation" of Jericho's effectiveness should have made Sword Simonds - and/or the Elders - require Virtue to at least be present, even after they'd seized Thunder.

I certainly see your point, but wasn't the overarching logic based on the fact that Thunder of God was supposed to be such an overwhelming force compared to what the RMN had in the system?

It was like a heavy cruiser going up against an SD? Another ship shouldn't have been needed, or, if another ship was needed against a heavy cruiser commanded by a buffoon, then the entire plan should have been called off anyway. No?

Dahak wrote:The near-superstitious dread they felt about the Grayson Navy after their last war and Yu's "overestimation" of Jericho's effectiveness should have made Sword Simonds - and/or the Elders - require Virtue to at least be present, even after they'd seized Thunder.

I wouldn't put it past the Elders and Simonds to do the opposite of what Yu requested to spite him and because they mistrusted Yu. If Yu is suggesting moving all the military away from Endicott, might they not fear that a Peep destroyer would come in and seize the system?

cthia wrote:I certainly see your point, but wasn't the overarching logic based on the fact that Thunder of God was supposed to be such an overwhelming force compared to what the RMN had in the system?

It was like a heavy cruiser going up against an SD? Another ship shouldn't have been needed, or, if another ship was needed against a heavy cruiser commanded by a buffoon, then the entire plan should have been called off anyway. No?

They'd already had the entire Masadan navy - aside from their LACs - in Yeltsin during Jericho. They didn't want to reveal the Haven-built BC or DD until the GSN had been crippled or destroyed.

Intellectually, Sword Simonds knew what Thunder of God could do to the GSN and the RMN destroyer, as shown by his response when asked what would happen if they seized Thunder, but they still dreaded going up against the GSN.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I wouldn't put it past the Elders and Simonds to do the opposite of what Yu requested to spite him and because they mistrusted Yu. If Yu is suggesting moving all the military away from Endicott, might they not fear that a Peep destroyer would come in and seize the system?

Keep in mind the fact that the Elders were aware that Ambassador Lacy was going to ask for a visit by a 'battle squadron or two' even before they seized Thunder of God.

They knew they were on a short-clock at that point anyway.

The entire pre-Jericho MSN couldn't stand up to Thunder of God, let alone their one remaining DD and two remaining LACs.

They knew what a squadron of BCs would do.

Once Lacy got his message off, they were doomed. They thought victory could save them, but that wasn't likely in the least.

Dahak wrote:The entire pre-Jericho MSN couldn't stand up to Thunder of God, let alone their one remaining DD and two remaining LACs.

They knew what a squadron of BCs would do.

Once Lacy got his message off, they were doomed. They thought victory could save them, but that wasn't likely in the least.

The entire MSN couldn't stand up to Theisman's destroyer. The MSN was composed of very old LACs and corsairs (by galactic standards), firing chemical rocket missiles. Yu's participation aboard PNS Sultan would be to take notes and offer critique to Theisman in the after-action report, if they'd been ordered to conquer or liberate the system.

The Elders may not agree with that assessment, though. Arrogant as they were, and driven by zealotry and thinking they had divine help, they most likely didn't. But I agree a BatCruRon would give them pause.

BTW, liberating Endicott from the oppression of the Elders should have been Parnell's and the Legislaturalist's strategy from the first place. They didn't need to be too squeamish about this; the Elders were oppressing half the population and were sponsoring privateers, as we later learnt in the back story of Judith and Ruth Winton. Neither system possessed much of a useful infrastructure to kickstart the base that they needed. While Yeltsin had more space-borne industry, it did so because the planet was much less inhabitable.

And besides, that's exactly what White Haven did, albeit after the MSN had already committed acts of war by firing on multiple RMN ships. It wouldn't be hard to fabricate a causus belli. Actually, it didn't even need to be a fabrication or false flag operation: with enough nudging, the privateers like the Templetons would be only too happy to walk into a trap and provoke a war.