Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine

Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:I did do a quick look about NATO requiring its members to be democracies... The answer is a "yes but..." Also included is language that says that countries that are advocating democratic values and progressing toward democracy can be included. What weaselly, meally mouthed language! What a loop hole! You could drive a freight truck though there!

I imagine that's how Turkey was included to start with...

Don

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That wasn't at all the reason why Turkey could be inducted into NATO.

Turkey joined NATO in 1952 and was relatively egalitarian and "westernized" by that time due to Atatürk's legacy. It wasn't until the money/credit from the Marshall Plan and Truman Doctrine ran out in the late 50's that things started taking a turn for the worse which led to Prime minister Menderes plan to visit Moscow and ask for credit and that triggered the military coup of 1960 which led Turkey in to a slow downward spiral when it comes to democratic values which makes us question Turkey's (well, Erdogan's) motives these days.

n7axw wrote:Thanks for the refresher... Democracies are fragile things, aren't they? We've certainly learned that here, after taking ours for granted for so long.... and we really aren't out of the woods yet.

Don

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Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:Thanks for the refresher... Democracies are fragile things, aren't they? We've certainly learned that here, after taking ours for granted for so long.... and we really aren't out of the woods yet.

Don

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That's the thing, when things take a turn for the worse people start looking for a "strong" leader and easy solutions. The number of strong leaders in humanity's history that turned out to be good in the long run are very few indeed.

n7axw wrote:

Joat42 wrote:That's the thing, when things take a turn for the worse people start looking for a "strong" leader and easy solutions. The number of strong leaders in humanity's history that turned out to be good in the long run are very few indeed.

The trouble is, most of the people voting that way don't realize what they are asking for and of those that do, very few know what they would be getting...

Don

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munroburton wrote:
I think it's evident that too many of those who support Leopard Eating People's Faces parties or candidates do know exactly what they're supporting.

They just think their own faces won't be among the eaten.

n7axw wrote:

munroburton wrote:
I think it's evident that too many of those who support Leopard Eating People's Faces parties or candidates do know exactly what they're supporting.

They just think their own faces won't be among the eaten.

This is a new one on me.,or maybe I am being a bit thick...

Please explain...

Don

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Joat42 wrote:As the original meme said it: "I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party."

Michael Everett wrote:

Joat42 wrote:As the original meme said it: "I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party."

Sadly there's historical records of laws which are theoretically applicable to all sections of society but were, in practice, only enforced against specific minorities.

The American South was quite infamous for this for many decades with many areas having a tacit understanding that whether something counted as a crime or not often depended on the skin-colour of the person in question.
This lasted until the Civil Rights movement started shining the light of publicity on it, whereupon it went from normal to covert but many people still expect it to be true... so when it isn't, it catches them by surprise even though most around them saw it coming.

Arol wrote:https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-finland-nato-turkey-erdogan-magdalena-anderssonkurdish-rights/

Of the thirty nations that comprise NATO, twenty eight would vote for Finland and Sweden joining the alliance; Hungary who knows, and one nation is resisting and would vote no! the NO’s have it!!!
The latest demand from the Autocrat from Turkey is that Sweden and Finland extradite to Turkey, a number of Kurds that have received political asylum in the countries.
The other demands he came with should be doable.
Closer monitoring of Kurdish extremist elements shouldn’t be a problem, since they are already on terrorists watch-lists, not just in Sweden and Finland, but across Europe.
Lifting of the embargo on military equipment imposed by Sweden and Finland and a number of other countries on Turkey. Imposed when the Turks made an incursion into Syria and instead of fighting ISIS, they had a go at the Kurds that were fighting ISIS.
But extraditing political refugees who are not breaking the laws of their host nation, that demand appears doubtful, as the domestic political ramifications would be immense. Not just in these two countries, but right across Europe as there are now Kurdish dissidents living in most countries.
Erdogan knows this, so this may simply be a “throw away” demand he puts out there in order to achieve something else he desires!
But if it’s as set in stone; as Putin’s original demands apparently were, then Putin’s wet dream will come true!
NATO divided!