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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by Arol » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:43 pm | |
Arol
Posts: 449
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Here’s another translated article from RIA the Russian state run news organization. It’s a bit long, but given the events in Bucha and other communities in vicinity of Kiev, I thought an article advocating genocide and forced expulsion of an entire people might be relevant.
It also might give a glimpse into the sort of propaganda the average Russian is inundated with daily: Translated from: https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html Back in April last year, we wrote about the inevitability of the denazification of Ukraine. Nazi, Bandera Ukraine, the enemy of Russia and the West's tool for the destruction of Russia, we do not need. Today, the issue of denazification has moved into a practical plane. Denazification is necessary when a significant part of the people - most likely the majority - has been mastered and drawn into the Nazi regime in its politics. That is, when the hypothesis "the people are good - the government is bad" does not work. Recognition of this fact is the basis of the policy of denazification, of all its measures, and the fact itself is its subject matter. Ukraine is in just such a situation. The fact that the Ukrainian voter voted for the "peace of Poroshenko" and "peace of Zelensky" should not be misleading - the Ukrainians were quite satisfied with the shortest path to peace through the blitzkrieg, which the last two Ukrainian presidents transparently hinted at when they were elected. It was this method of "appeasement" of internal anti-fascists - through total terror - that was used in Odessa, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Mariupol, other Russian cities. And this quite suited the Ukrainian man in the street. Denazification is a set of measures in relation to the nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be subjected to direct punishment as war criminals. The Nazis who took up arms should be destroyed to the maximum on the battlefield. No significant distinction should be made between APU and the so-called national battalions, as well as the territorial defense that joined these two types of military formations. All of them are equally involved in extreme cruelty against the civilian population, equally guilty of the genocide of the Russian people, do not comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis should be exemplarily and exponentially punished. There must be a total lustration. Any organizations that have associated themselves with the practice of Nazism have been liquidated and banned. However, in addition to the top, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi power. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, carried out with the utmost care and discretion in relation to civilians. Further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and strict censorship: not only in the political sphere, but also necessarily in the sphere of culture and education. It was through culture and education that a deep mass nazification of the population was prepared and carried out, secured by the promise of dividends from the victory of the Nazi regime over Russia, Nazi propaganda, internal violence and terror, as well as an eight-year war with the people of Donbass who rebelled against Ukrainian Nazism. Denazification can only be carried out by the winner, which implies (1) his absolute control over the denazification process and (2) the power to ensure such control. In this respect, a denazified country cannot be sovereign. The denazifying state - Russia - cannot proceed from a liberal approach with regard to denazification. The ideology of the denazifier cannot be disputed by the guilty party subjected to denazification. Russia's recognition of the need to denazify Ukraine means the recognition of the impossibility of the Crimean scenario for Ukraine as a whole. However, this scenario was impossible in 2014 and in the rebellious Donbass. Only eight years of resistance to Nazi violence and terror led to internal cohesion and a conscious unambiguous mass refusal to maintain any unity and connection with Ukraine. The terms of denazification can in no way be less than one generation, which must be born, grow up and reach maturity under the conditions of denazification. The nazification of Ukraine continued for more than 30 years, beginning at least in 1989, when Ukrainian nationalism received legal and legitimate forms of political expression and led the movement for "independence" towards Nazism. The peculiarity of modern nazified Ukraine is in amorphousness and ambivalence, which allow Nazism to be disguised as a desire for "independence" and a "European" (Western, pro-American) path of "development" (in reality - to degradation), to assert that in Ukraine "there is no Nazism, only private individual excesses". After all, there is no main Nazi party, no Fuhrer, no full-fledged racial laws (only their truncated version in the form of repressions against the Russian language). As a result, there is no opposition and resistance to the regime. However, all of the above does not make Ukrainian Nazism a "light version" of German Nazism during the first half of the 20th century. On the contrary, since Ukrainian Nazism is free from such "genre" (essentially political technology) frameworks and restrictions, it freely unfolds as the fundamental basis of any Nazism - as European and, in its most developed form, American racism. Therefore, denazification cannot be carried out in a compromise, based on a formula like " NATO - no, the EU - yes. "The collective West is itself the designer, source and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Western Bandera cadres and their "historical memory" are only one of the tools for the Nazismization of Ukraine. Ukronazism carries not less, but a greater threat the world and Russia than the German Nazism of the Hitlerite version. The name "Ukraine" apparently cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime. The people's republics newly created in the space free from Nazism should and will grow from the practice of economic self-government and social security, restoration and modernization of the life support systems of the population. In fact, their political aspirations cannot be neutral - expiation of guilt before Russia for treating it as an enemy can be realized only by relying on Russia in the processes of restoration, revival and development. No "Marshall Plans" should be allowed for these territories. There can be no "neutrality" in the ideological and practical sense, compatible with denazification. The cadres and organizations that are the instrument of denazification in the newly denazified republics cannot but rely on Russia's direct military and organizational support. Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization - a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia and New Russia, begun by the Soviet authorities. Being an instrument of the communist superpower, after its fall, artificial ethnocentrism did not remain ownerless. In this official capacity, he passed under the authority of another superpower (the power standing over the states) — the superpower of the West. It must be returned to its natural boundaries and deprived of political functionality. Unlike, say, Georgia and the Baltic countries, Ukraine, as history has shown, is impossible as a nation state, and attempts to "build" one naturally lead to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construction that does not have its own civilizational content, a subordinate element of an alien and alien civilization. Debanderization by itself will not be enough for denazification - the Bandera element is only a performer and a screen, a disguise for the European project of Nazi Ukraine, therefore the denazification of Ukraine is also its inevitable de-Europeanization. The Bandera elite must be eliminated, its re-education is impossible. The social "bog", (i.e. the people of Ukraine) which actively and passively supported it by action and inaction, must survive the hardships of the war and assimilate the experience as a historical lesson and atonement for its guilt. Those who did not support the Nazi regime, suffered from it and the war unleashed by him in the Donbass, must be consolidated and organized, must become the pillar of the new government, its vertical and horizontal. Historical experience shows that the tragedies and dramas of wartime benefit peoples who have been tempted and carried away by the role of an enemy of Russia. Denazification as the goal of a special military operation within the framework of this operation itself is understood as a military victory over the Kiev regime, the liberation of territories from armed supporters of the Nazis, the elimination of implacable Nazis, the capture of war criminals, and the creation of systemic conditions for the subsequent denazification in peacetime. The latter, in turn, should begin with the organization of local self-government, police and defense bodies, cleansed of Nazi elements, launching on their basis the founding processes of founding a new republican statehood, integrating this statehood into close cooperation with the Russian department for the denazification of Ukraine (newly created or converted, say, from Rossotrudnichestvo), with the adoption under Russian control of the republican regulatory framework (legislation) on denazification, the definition of the boundaries and framework for the direct application of Russian law and Russian jurisdiction in the liberated territory in the field of denazification, the creation of a tribunal for crimes against humanity in the former Ukraine. In this regard, Russia should act as the guardian of the Nuremberg Trials. All of the above means that in order to achieve the goals of denazification, the support of the population is necessary, its transition to the side of Russia after liberation from terror, violence and ideological pressure of the Kiev regime, after the withdrawal from informational isolation. Of course, it will take some time for people to recover from the shock of hostilities, to be convinced of Russia's long-term intentions - that "they will not be abandoned." It is impossible to foresee in advance exactly in which territories such a mass of the population will constitute a critically needed majority. The "Catholic province" (Western Ukraine as part of five regions) is unlikely to become part of the pro-Russian territories. The line of alienation, however, will be found empirically. Behind it will remain hostile to Russia, but forcibly neutral and demilitarized Ukraine with formally banned Nazism. The haters of Russia will go there. The guarantee of the preservation of this residual Ukraine in a neutral state should be the threat of an immediate continuation of the military operation in case of non-compliance with the listed requirements. Perhaps this will require a permanent Russian military presence on its territory. From the exclusion line to the Russian border there will be a territory of potential integration into Russian civilization, which is anti-fascist in its internal nature. The operation to denazify Ukraine, which began with a military phase, will follow the same logic of stages in peacetime as a military operation. At each of them, it will be necessary to achieve irreversible changes, which will become the results of the corresponding stage. In this case, the necessary initial steps of denazification can be defined as follows: liquidation of armed Nazi formations (which means any armed formations of Ukraine, including the Armed Forces of Ukraine), as well as the military, informational, educational infrastructure that ensures their activity; the formation of public self-government bodies and militia (defense and law enforcement) of the liberated territories, protecting the population from the terror of underground Nazi groups; installation of the Russian information space; the withdrawal of educational materials and the prohibition of educational programs at all levels containing Nazi ideological guidelines; mass investigative actions to establish personal responsibility for war crimes, crimes against humanity, the spread of Nazi ideology and support for the Nazi regime; lustration, publication of the names of accomplices of the Nazi regime, involving them in forced labor to restore the destroyed infrastructure as punishment for Nazi activities (from among those who will not be subject to the death penalty or imprisonment); the adoption at the local level, under the supervision of Russia, of primary normative acts of denazification "from below", a ban on all types and forms of the revival of Nazi ideology; the establishment of memorials, commemorative signs, monuments to the victims of Ukrainian Nazism, perpetuating the memory of the heroes of the struggle against it; the inclusion of a complex of anti-fascist and denazification norms in the constitutions of the new people's republics; creation of permanent denazification bodies for a period of 25 years. Russia will have no allies in the denazification of Ukraine. Since this is a purely Russian business. And also because not just the Bandera version of Nazi Ukraine will be eradicated, but also, and above all, Western totalitarianism, the imposed programs of civilizational degradation and disintegration, the mechanisms of subjugation to the superpower of the West and the United States. |
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by Joat42 » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:52 pm | |
Joat42
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Every accusation, a confession... --- Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer. Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool. |
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by n7axw » Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:02 pm | |
n7axw
Posts: 5997
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A rather glaring error here from a western perspective... The failure to understand the notion that the notion that government should be accountable to the people and not the other way around... Also who goes around making decisions for other people educating them sometimes forcibly...into a "correct" point of view and who gets to decide what that point of view is Finally, who denazifies Russia? Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by Daryl » Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:37 am | |
Daryl
Posts: 3560
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Thanks for that. I think.
It will take me some time to compose myself after reading it. It does explain many things, including the bravery of the Ukrainians. After all they must have seen this and similar, so what's the point of surrendering if the outcome is even worse than what is happening now? Being an optimist I always look for a glimmer of light in the darkest time so wonder if this is indicative of a national psychosis? If the average Russian can accept this, perhaps they are no longer capable of logical thought? If so will they and their leaders continue to make such blunders that they will lose to a smaller and less aggressive opponent? |
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by isaac_newton » Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:28 am | |
isaac_newton
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Yes to this. One incidental thing that struck me was just how utterly turgid [almost unreadable] the article is. Is that just the translation OR is it the style remnants of the old soviet era apparatchiks OR??? |
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by n7axw » Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:25 pm | |
n7axw
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Paranoia has always played a driving role in politics. Consider our Red scares which continue to be a force in American politics today. Sometimes it can be true. Even paranoiacs can have real enemies. But true or not, the disease continues.
Russia has always suffered from a severe degree of paranoia. dating at least back to the Mongol invasions. That came from the east. But most came from the west. Germans have invaded Russia several times. The Swedes invaded Russia. The French invaded Russia. All of this makes Russia's paranoia understandable, bred and reinforced by her history. The Russian looks west and sees a vast indefensible plain with neighbors who at least different if not hostile. So it is that historically, Russia is restlessly expansionist seeking to conquer her neighbors before they conquer her. Paranoia. It drove Stalin's insistence on his buffer zone from the West after WW 2. It now drive Putin's actions in Ukraine. Just gotta keep NATO at a distance, even though, NATO was gradually away. even though no one in the West was particularly interested in Russia, let alone invading. Paranoia is the main driver behind the Tass article. It is all there... the need to react to a threat that at this point is imaginary, the need to control how others think, the demonizing of the other... It's all there. This means that the problem does not go away with Putin. At this time the paranoia is deeply embedded in the Russian spirit. That means that even after Putin is gone, there will be more Putin's and for the foreseeable future, the only viable policy toward Russia will be to keep her contained. Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by isaac_newton » Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:02 am | |
isaac_newton
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https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/08/ukraines-iron-general-zaluzhnyy-00023901
interesting article on the significant changes in the Ukraine army since 2014. It in some ways looks very like the changes in the British army in the last year/months of WW1 - became deeply competent as compared to the time of the Somme. It is so odd that thay are back to trench warefare in the east! |
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by Daryl » Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:45 pm | |
Daryl
Posts: 3560
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It's interesting (to me), that just before this started, my intelligent (but not technically) wife expressed misgivings as she had read an article that said the Russian armoured vehicles were "bomb proof".
I argued the opposite, and said that the western anti tank missiles would prove that to be wrong. Now looking at thousands of tons of blasted rusting metal, I have to be careful not to keep saying that I told you so. Years ago during the Iraqi war, while talking to the Head of our armed forces, he said that his biggest nightmare was a committed soldier with a competent shoulder launched missile. Anti aircraft, anti armour, or just a RPG it was impossible to defend against, and killing the launcher afterwards wasn't any consolation for losing tons of expensive equipment, and dozens of trained troops. |
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by n7axw » Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:59 am | |
n7axw
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Do you believe that tanks are obsolete? Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine | |
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by The E » Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:21 am | |
The E
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They sort of are. The modern battlefield is very very hostile to them; there is so much organic anti-tank weaponry available to a modern infantry unit that making a tank more than a very expensive death trap is going to take some serious rethinking of the role these vehicles will play in the future. There's definitely places where what you really want is a highly mobile 120mm gun, but the main role that MBTs are designed for (fighting other MBTs) will have to take a back seat to something more akin to a drone carrier. Using tanks to provide a hardened base from which to launch drones, gather intel and to do counter-drone EW or other countermeasures is going to be an integral part of future armored vehicle doctrine, I believe. |
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