War of Honor - Treaty Negotiation

How does President Pritchart and the rest of the Republic of Haven think that wanting SKM to let the occupied systems vote on whether they want to remain under Manticore rule or return to RH rule (who had previously conquered them) makes any sense? Especially the line by Senator McGwire "principle of self-determination, expressed in plebiscites under Republican oversight and jurisdiction, for all of the occupied planets and star systems". "What it requires is that those planets and those star systems be restored to our jurisdiction long enough for us to ascertain what the expressed will of their citizens is under conditions which let us be positive they're not being intimidated or coerced by an occupying power."

"We conquered them first. We get to ascertain if they want to remain under our rule."

Lonny

PS: I apologize if this has already been discussed. I searched the forum and couldn't find any posts.

Lonny wrote:How does President Pritchart and the rest of the Republic of Haven think that wanting SKM to let the occupied systems vote on whether they want to remain under Manticore rule or return to RH rule (who had previously conquered them) makes any sense? Especially the line by Senator McGwire "principle of self-determination, expressed in plebiscites under Republican oversight and jurisdiction, for all of the occupied planets and star systems". "What it requires is that those planets and those star systems be restored to our jurisdiction long enough for us to ascertain what the expressed will of their citizens is under conditions which let us be positive they're not being intimidated or coerced by an occupying power."

"We conquered them first. We get to ascertain if they want to remain under our rule."

Lonny

PS: I apologize if this has already been discussed. I searched the forum and couldn't find any posts.

It becomes moot if Eloise and the Queen go through with the plan to establish something stronger than the European Union that they are discussing. The main problem at the time of the discussions to which you refer, was that the Haven foreign secretary was trying to ramp up tensions and the High Ridge government just wanted talks to drag on. I am sure that if plebiscites were held now, then it would be fine if the vote was to go with Manticore or go with Haven or go independent, Both parties would watch together to make sure the vote was free and fair.

Lonny wrote:How does President Pritchart and the rest of the Republic of Haven think that wanting SKM to let the occupied systems vote on whether they want to remain under Manticore rule or return to RH rule (who had previously conquered them) makes any sense? Especially the line by Senator McGwire "principle of self-determination, expressed in plebiscites under Republican oversight and jurisdiction, for all of the occupied planets and star systems". "What it requires is that those planets and those star systems be restored to our jurisdiction long enough for us to ascertain what the expressed will of their citizens is under conditions which let us be positive they're not being intimidated or coerced by an occupying power."

It's a starting point for negotiation. You're right, it's not likely that Manticore and the Alliance would accept that. But a compromise is possible: a plebiscite under Manticore rule with Havenite and third-party observers to ensure that the plebiscite is clean and fair.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's a starting point for negotiation. You're right, it's not likely that Manticore and the Alliance would accept that. But a compromise is possible: a plebiscite under Manticore rule with Havenite and third-party observers to ensure that the plebiscite is clean and fair.

And remember - at the time Haven made that demand Manticore's government (ugh, High Ridge) was the sketchy one that they weren't sure could be trusted -- and which they worried might be turning expansionistic. (Even before Giancola started playing games with the content of Manticore's diplomatic notes)

As you say, I doubt Pritchart thought that Manticore would just hand them back, even with the promise that Haven would immediately hold fair and open plebiscites -- but I also see why Haven wouldn't trust High Ridge's corrupt cronies to necessarily run a fair election either. After all, Haven had a lot of experience with rigged or fixed elections; so it'd be a fear even if Manticore's current government appeared totally trustworthy (which it didn't)

So Pritchart would want to settle on some level of compromise that would let all involved (Haven, Manticore, and the local populations) have confidence that the voting was fair and honest. She probably would have preferred that to her original ask; giving Haven full control of it -- because while she'd then be reasonably sure the elections had been fair the population might well suspect otherwise and it would leave doubts in Manticore's mind. But you don't start negotiation with your absolute bare minimum you could possible accept offer -- you work towards that.

So start by asking for conditions that give Haven full confidence and work out a compromise that gives all the key players confidence in the outcome - whatever that could be.


And it didn't seem like negotiations over the general plebiscites were going to be a sticking point -- the only thing the talks really broke down over was Giancola fucking around with the notes dealing with the status of Trevor's Star; and making it seem like the Manties were generally negotiating in bad faith by publicly lying about the contents of the notes. Absent that I'm pretty confident they'd have settled on how the elections were to be setup, held, and monitored.