How to mothball RMN ships

cthia wrote:If there are 60 SDs in the wild that are free to throw at such a peripheral operation, then that implies there is also a gorilla in the wild. In which case you definitely wouldn't have the luxury of considering a mothballed fleet anyway which has lead to a distribution to member states instead. And you wouldn't dare adopt a posture of a pair of SDs as pickets without at least including a supporting pair of fast messenger ships to sound the alarm.

A strategic benefit would be the quick response to a situation with combined forces which are but a stones-throw away. Think the fast response Byng received from Henke times two. And also consider that this gorilla in the midst has to have equivalent tech or their goose will be cooked by a pair of SDs.

The strategy will also enable shutting down the MWJ or any other junction because forces could respond from the massed metal distributed on the other side.

I simply disagree. A pair of SDs isn't trying to be strong everywhere, it is a proper allocation of available forces. Available surplus forces. The HV is huge. Space is huge. I see no reason why a financially secure system like Manticore can't afford to project power in the form of stronger than average bases and pickets that reflect their coffers.

Can't be strong everywhere is true if and only if it is true. If you can be strong everywhere because the traditional prohibitive factor of cost is not an issue, then you can be. A pair of SDs is not being strong, it is being convenient. And it challenges a gorilla to draw down his forces considerably to support an operation using 60 SDs. Actually it forces the gorilla to tip his hand before he comes calling on your home system.

There is another issue that befalls navies in a time of peace. That of preparedness. Having enough ships to fight a war. And having enough personnel, trained personnel to execute that war. A heavily drawn down navy will begin to look unfavorable to someone who would normally have joined the Navy. Your Academies will begin accepting less and less cadets because there is no demand for them.

BOOM! Here comes war when you least expect it, and you have limited ships, rusty production lines, a shortage of experienced crew, officers, and resources coming off the assembly line. Both hardware and warm bodies.
[snip]

And now you have all of these naval officers and crew who have to retire after fighting all of their lives with no place to go.

.

Um, the Star Empire of Manticore currently has (according to the wiki) 20 member systems and 34 protectorates. We can remove a few of those as they already have major fleets posted -- but putting a minimum of 2 SDs in every system would still tie up around 100 SDs. That's a significant amount of the entire RMN; and even if those are all modern SD(P)s, which would require building a lot more in order to fill out the major fleets plus divert 100 in penny packets around the empire. That's a lot of cost to build and man all those wallers - just to distribute them in penny packets. (And keeping the existing legacy SDs in service for that would be even worse; they're even larger money pits than modern SD(P) and worse they're less survivable and combat effect than the far cheaper to man and operate BC(P)s and BC(L)s!)

And far from having huge excess numbers of personnel I tend to think the RMN might actually have a bit of a manpower shortage for peacetime needs. LAC wings make useful system defenders, but they collectively use up more people than SD(P)s or other highly automated ships do. Plus as mentioned a lot of the peacetime ship duties require larger crews than the bare bones war emergency designs that were aimed to fire the most firepower (and defense) into a hull with the fewest number of people.

The RMN will need crew for all the light units and LAC wings that are needed to cover all their systems and protectorates for normal peacetime system defense, anti-piracy, etc. etc. missions.


The Admiralty had apparently determined the number of wallers they want in commission -- forcing them to keep more than that instead of mothballing them not only imposes extra personnel costs (unless you keep them in preference to the more numerous lighter units and LACs the Admiralty seems to feel are necessary to meet its obligations) running them is much more expensive (fuels, repair, maintenance, refit) than mothballing them. And continuing to operate them wears them out -- unlike keeping them in mothballs for a later emergency. (Though mothballs does risk them slowly becoming obsolete on you and ignoring the time and cost it would take to bring them up to useful spec during an emergency reactivation)

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:If there are 60 SDs in the wild that are free to throw at such a peripheral operation, then that implies there is also a gorilla in the wild. In which case you definitely wouldn't have the luxury of considering a mothballed fleet anyway which has lead to a distribution to member states instead. And you wouldn't dare adopt a posture of a pair of SDs as pickets without at least including a supporting pair of fast messenger ships to sound the alarm.

A strategic benefit would be the quick response to a situation with combined forces which are but a stones-throw away. Think the fast response Byng received from Henke times two. And also consider that this gorilla in the midst has to have equivalent tech or their goose will be cooked by a pair of SDs.

The strategy will also enable shutting down the MWJ or any other junction because forces could respond from the massed metal distributed on the other side.

I simply disagree. A pair of SDs isn't trying to be strong everywhere, it is a proper allocation of available forces. Available surplus forces. The HV is huge. Space is huge. I see no reason why a financially secure system like Manticore can't afford to project power in the form of stronger than average bases and pickets that reflect their coffers.

Can't be strong everywhere is true if and only if it is true. If you can be strong everywhere because the traditional prohibitive factor of cost is not an issue, then you can be. A pair of SDs is not being strong, it is being convenient. And it challenges a gorilla to draw down his forces considerably to support an operation using 60 SDs. Actually it forces the gorilla to tip his hand before he comes calling on your home system.

There is another issue that befalls navies in a time of peace. That of preparedness. Having enough ships to fight a war. And having enough personnel, trained personnel to execute that war. A heavily drawn down navy will begin to look unfavorable to someone who would normally have joined the Navy. Your Academies will begin accepting less and less cadets because there is no demand for them.

BOOM! Here comes war when you least expect it, and you have limited ships, rusty production lines, a shortage of experienced crew, officers, and resources coming off the assembly line. Both hardware and warm bodies.
[snip]

And now you have all of these naval officers and crew who have to retire after fighting all of their lives with no place to go.

.

Um, the Star Empire of Manticore currently has (according to the wiki) 20 member systems and 34 protectorates. We can remove a few of those as they already have major fleets posted -- but putting a minimum of 2 SDs in every system would still tie up around 100 SDs.

I think "tie-up" is too strong a term. This is peacetime. And I am not advocating allocating a specific ship strength (like two SDs) to pickets. I am saying that instead of sending whatever ships that are going to be mothballed, send them to member states. I would certainly feel safer if there was an additional SD sent to cover my ass instead of some pissant picket. It would be a good political move as well. At any rate, send them as they become available and earmarked for mothballs. What is the difference between that and sending captured prizes to Grayson?

Jonathan_S wrote: That's a significant amount of the entire RMN; and even if those are all modern SD(P)s, which would require building a lot more in order to fill out the major fleets plus divert 100 in penny packets around the empire. That's a lot of cost to build and man all those wallers - just to distribute them in penny packets. (And keeping the existing legacy SDs in service for that would be even worse; they're even larger money pits than modern SD(P) and worse they're less survivable and combat effect than the far cheaper to man and operate BC(P)s and BC(L)s!)

Why do you have to build more? The notion is about using earmarked mothballs, not building new ships. And why would the notion cause a shortage in manpower? If three ships are to be mothballed, their own crew can man them. They have just been handed a pie assignment instead of the speculation of retirement.

And I just can't accept that money is an object for the richest system in existence. In time of peace, the MWJ is making money faster than the MBS can wipe their arses with it. And there will be no losses incurred from lost ships. No insane costs spent on missiles, and demonstration launches. Etc. Etc.

Plus, the logistics available to the Admiralty has finally given him a chance to loosen that noose around his neck if war does break out. He now has a significant weight of metal to reposition without even having to bother drawing down critical nodes. And can you imagine a Case Zulu where everything is called home? Heck, in the case of a destroyed Home Fleet, the equivalent of a Home Fleet can arrive to replace it.

I can't understand simply entertaining the negatives without also weighing the positives. And the negatives seem to be inconsequential applied to the MBS. Sure, the Havenites, the Grayson's, and possibly the Andermani may not be able to afford it. The MBS can, without spending anywhere near as much as a war.

Jonathan_S wrote:And far from having huge excess numbers of personnel I tend to think the RMN might actually have a bit of a manpower shortage for peacetime needs. LAC wings make useful system defenders, but they collectively use up more people than SD(P)s or other highly automated ships do. Plus as mentioned a lot of the peacetime ship duties require larger crews than the bare bones war emergency designs that were aimed to fire the most firepower (and defense) into a hull with the fewest number of people.

Again, if the ship is earmarked for mothballs, so is the crew.

Jonathan_S wrote:The RMN will need crew for all the light units and LAC wings that are needed to cover all their systems and protectorates for normal peacetime system defense, anti-piracy, etc. etc. missions.


The Admiralty had apparently determined the number of wallers they want in commission -- forcing them to keep more than that instead of mothballing them not only imposes extra personnel costs (unless you keep them in preference to the more numerous lighter units and LACs the Admiralty seems to feel are necessary to meet its obligations) running them is much more expensive (fuels, repair, maintenance, refit) than mothballing them. And continuing to operate them wears them out -- unlike keeping them in mothballs for a later emergency. (Though mothballs does risk them slowly becoming obsolete on you and ignoring the time and cost it would take to bring them up to useful spec during an emergency reactivation)

I am not saying that all ships earmarked for mothballs have to be deployed as a picket. It makes sense to use their crew if needed. But in time, more and more ships could be picked for picket duty.

When Beowulf got hit in with that attack by the SLN the damage to the production facilities was primarily to a nanite tank farm for construction. Ok, there may have been a lot of military production facelifts on the 3 HABITATS that were destroyed by bombs but I don't recall being told that the Beowulf ship production (specifically military) was with the habitats. It also doesn't mention of they had set up the Grayson style of detached yards for the building. Unless all the engineering and construction people (and any others that were sent to learn) were living on the three destroyed habitats, then they probably survived.
NOTHING was said about Beowulf's shipbuilding capabilities being destroyed in that entire event.

I also don't recall anything about any Manticore merchant marine ships being lost in Oyster Bay -other than seven or so LINERS --though there certainly would have been a couple at the stations. All those ships initially pulled back and without their normal runs because of the Lacoon orders would not have been "tied up at the piers". Parking orbits for those who wer not able to get new contracts and routes but the question is where. Certainly not in close to the big stations nor around any of the disbursed shipyards locations for both security and just safety.
Depending on what the timing was, how likely is it that the targeting queue would have been restructued to include a hundred or more freighters in more-or-less remote parking slots? Limited number of weapons, timing to identify things like ships parked in low traffic "mooring areas" and not showing much in the way of energy signatures?

Now that the SL has to sort itself out, the MMM should be able to go back into the trade mix with the footprint of the former SL 1.0 and the areas "administered" by OFS. Yeah, they will have to remake their contacts and set up the legs of runs but the SL is still way short of transport capasity even if they are no longer moving materials (and weapons) for the SLN.

That is likely to call for some variation of RMN/ GA commerce protection because the diplomatic framework is all messed around with. Plus there is the not so little challenge that the SLN is under a To Be Shot On Sight notice if they go out of SL direct territory for --a while-- so somebody is going to have to do patrols.

Perhaps we will even get some information about how the GA works out the keeping various systems and companies from impounding MMM ships pulled out by Lacoon because of the SL's actions.
Fun stuff. Keep the lawyers busy.

all the MMM ships lost their surety bonds because they either stole their customers shipments or failed to complete the shipment as contracted when they didn't show up per the contract.

So someone has to come up with trillions to rebuild the surety bonds.

Brigade XO wrote:When Beowulf got hit in with that attack by the SLN the damage to the production facilities was primarily to a nanite tank farm for construction. Ok, there may have been a lot of military production facelifts on the 3 HABITATS that were destroyed by bombs but I don't recall being told that the Beowulf ship production (specifically military) was with the habitats. It also doesn't mention of they had set up the Grayson style of detached yards for the building. Unless all the engineering and construction people (and any others that were sent to learn) were living on the three destroyed habitats, then they probably survived.
NOTHING was said about Beowulf's shipbuilding capabilities being destroyed in that entire event.

I also don't recall anything about any Manticore merchant marine ships being lost in Oyster Bay -other than seven or so LINERS --though there certainly would have been a couple at the stations. All those ships initially pulled back and without their normal runs because of the Lacoon orders would not have been "tied up at the piers". Parking orbits for those who wer not able to get new contracts and routes but the question is where. Certainly not in close to the big stations nor around any of the disbursed shipyards locations for both security and just safety.
Depending on what the timing was, how likely is it that the targeting queue would have been restructued to include a hundred or more freighters in more-or-less remote parking slots? Limited number of weapons, timing to identify things like ships parked in low traffic "mooring areas" and not showing much in the way of energy signatures?

Now that the SL has to sort itself out, the MMM should be able to go back into the trade mix with the footprint of the former SL 1.0 and the areas "administered" by OFS. Yeah, they will have to remake their contacts and set up the legs of runs but the SL is still way short of transport capasity even if they are no longer moving materials (and weapons) for the SLN.

That is likely to call for some variation of RMN/ GA commerce protection because the diplomatic framework is all messed around with. Plus there is the not so little challenge that the SLN is under a To Be Shot On Sight notice if they go out of SL direct territory for --a while-- so somebody is going to have to do patrols.

Perhaps we will even get some information about how the GA works out the keeping various systems and companies from impounding MMM ships pulled out by Lacoon because of the SL's actions.
Fun stuff. Keep the lawyers busy.

It is specifically stated that only light industry was allowed in the Beowulf orbitals that were destroyed; so the question is where were the workers staying? If in the orbitals, then Beowulf is in similar shape to Manticore after the Yawata Strike.

I was not saying that the freighters themselves would be destroyed by the Yawata Strike, although they could have been depending on where they were parked. However the crews for those freighters were unlikely to have remained aboard, if they were in a Manticoran orbital (depending on the timing), then they could have been killed. Even if not killed, they could have moved on to other jobs.

kzt wrote:all the MMM ships lost their surety bonds because they either stole their customers shipments or failed to complete the shipment as contracted when they didn't show up per the contract.

So someone has to come up with trillions to rebuild the surety bonds.

Those contracts may have exceptions for force majeure, war, and/or government sanctions.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Those contracts may have exceptions for force majeure, war, and/or government sanctions.

So the defrauding of every major SL shipper and industrial firm will not be compensated?

And you expect people will be planning on doing business with the criminals again?

Have you ever had a contractor rip you off? Did you feel like you wanted to do business with them again? Or did you decide you don't want to pay scumbags and criminals to steal from you again?

cthia wrote:I simply disagree. A pair of SDs isn't trying to be strong everywhere, it is a proper allocation of available forces. Available surplus forces. The HV is huge. Space is huge. I see no reason why a financially secure system like Manticore can't afford to project power in the form of stronger than average bases and pickets that reflect their coffers.

The problem is we're disputing what's "proper allocation." It's not.

I think "tie-up" is too strong a term. This is peacetime. And I am not advocating allocating a specific ship strength (like two SDs) to pickets. I am saying that instead of sending whatever ships that are going to be mothballed, send them to member states. I would certainly feel safer if there was an additional SD sent to cover my ass instead of some pissant picket. It would be a good political move as well. At any rate, send them as they become available and earmarked for mothballs. What is the difference between that and sending captured prizes to Grayson?

That's the problem, isn't it? Allocating SDs to the each member system would make the population feel/i] safer, but they would not necessarily [i]be safer than a properly set up defence. It would be [i\politically[/i] advantageous to do that, but it might not be militarily advantageous.

What can an SD division do that a properly provisioned orbital base controlling shoals of Mk41 4-stage system defence missiles not do? Nothing. SDs are offensive units, not defensive ones. They are good to project power elsewhere, not to defend against weaker forces. And given the 4DMs available to the GA, 60 SDs couldn't take a system... and no one has 60 SDs outside the GA itself and the SLN.

More importantly, what can the base with its allocation of LACs, a division of DDs and maybe a CL do that SDs can't? You can't avoid those lighter units in the first place. They have to be there, because you can't send an SD to do a customs inspection. It's also one ship and the Laws of Physics say that it can only be at one place at a time, so if three raiders come in, two could tie up the two SDs in the division while the third conducted a strike. So if you have the light units and you have the 4DMs, what do you need the SDs for?

And what's important enough in a system like Nuncio to be worth an SD division? The thing of most value would be the SDs themselves, actually. Before their arrival, it would be a system worth nothing of tactical value; not even a raider would go there because there's nothing to be gained and a lot to be lost if a LAC wing caught up with it. After their arrival, the system becomes a target.

Finally, "member states" in the SEM cannot have armed forces. That's at best a militia and a System Guard for search and rescue. We know the Quadrant itself raised an army to go with Tenth Fleet, but again this was a Quadrant-wide decision and counter-signed by the military authority of the region. I don't see Khumalo doing that for each member system paying for and operating an SD division... something most of them, if not any of them, can actually afford on their own. There's a reason that the RTU had nothing better than third-hand light ships.

Why do you have to build more? The notion is about using earmarked mothballs, not building new ships. And why would the notion cause a shortage in manpower? If three ships are to be mothballed, their own crew can man them. They have just been handed a pie assignment instead of the speculation of retirement.

Because the older ships are more expensive to operate. If you're going to keep ships in active service, they're going to be your newest, baddest, and also incidentally least personnel-intensive ones.

And I just can't accept that money is an object for the richest system in existence. In time of peace, the MWJ is making money faster than the MBS can wipe their arses with it. And there will be no losses incurred from lost ships. No insane costs spent on missiles, and demonstration launches. Etc. Etc.

Has there ever been any government in history that had more cash than it knew what to use it for? There's no such thing.

Yes, Manticore can pay for it, if needed. But they won't want to because instead of paying for them, they can lower taxes and/or redirect to other programmes, especially education and infrastructure in both Silesia and Talbott. We know that Manticore has afforded the cost of the three wars by increasing the transit fees in the Junction as well as a war-time income tax. However low it might have been, it was not zero and the population is expecting that number to go down now that the active wars are over.

I can't understand simply entertaining the negatives without also weighing the positives. And the negatives seem to be inconsequential applied to the MBS. Sure, the Havenites, the Grayson's, and possibly the Andermani may not be able to afford it. The MBS can, without spending anywhere near as much as a war.

We are entertaining the positives, but the conclusion by most people in the forum is that they are outweighed by the negatives. You have not addressed in your reply the issue of wear and tear on those ships kept active.

This is not an all-or-nothing. The RMN has more ships than it needs to in order to successfully patrol and defend every single system in the SEM, to the level expected of the current danger. You don't pay for a military 4x as big as it needs to be for decades on end just in case a war with an unknown enemy, much stronger than anyone you know about, will suddenly and unexpectedly break out. There's no one out there that can threaten any system in the SEM once the system defence missiles are installed, aside from the GA itself. No polity would be crazy to do that after the GA, with Manticore leading, defeated the mighty Solarian League. There's not a single planet with a military in the Galaxy that will fail to hear that news.

There may be some crazies that may want to do it anyway. Then they're going to get a visit by Admiral Gold Peak, the woman who liberated an entire sector without a single ship lost, then went on to conquer Mesa without firing a shot.

Situations may change, of course. That's why the RMN and the GA as a whole must keep their intelligence services going. They must continuously reevaluate the strategic situation in the Galaxy. If one of the SL splinter states or one of the new system associations starts going militaristic and building up forces, or has technological breakthroughs, then they may need to have more active ships. But that's not a sudden threat.

The exception to all of this is that we and they know that there is an enemy that is hiding, is likely building up forces, has a technological breakthrough, and has demonstrated ruthlessness and a willingness, fondness even, for sneak attacks. That means that while it's ostensibly peace time, it's not. That means they have to keep a larger force active than what would be otherwise called for. But that does not mean they have to keep all forces active, especially as they don't know when that threat will materialise.

Again, if the ship is earmarked for mothballs, so is the crew.

Yes, a crew who is 90% enlisted, whose terms of enlistment will eventually come due. Without an active and declared war, the RMN has no claim to them. It's their choice whether to re-enlist or not. If there's no war going on, they may choose to go civilian. If the market is looking for people with their expertise, they can command good salaries that the RMN cannot easily afford. All that infrastructure building in Talbott and Silesia, plus the merchant marine, will be screaming for qualified help.

The SEM now has a much larger population pool to get enlisted and officers from, but those are new people, not your experienced hands.

I am not saying that all ships earmarked for mothballs have to be deployed as a picket. It makes sense to use their crew if needed. But in time, more and more ships could be picked for picket duty.

More and more light ships, with BCs as nodal, quick response forces. Those are also very good ships for the newcomers from Talbott, Lynx, Silesia, and Trevor's Star to learn on and catch up. They're very good for the younger generation of officers to learn ship-, division- and even squadron-handling on, without a war going on. In fact, the tried and true method that the RMN used for the 100 years prior to the war, especially since King Roger took over and began the Navy expansion.

Fleets with SDs will probably be concentrated in MBS, some termini (in different strengths), and probably in the sector capitals.

kzt wrote:So the defrauding of every major SL shipper and industrial firm will not be compensated?

It's not defrauding if it's in the contract of carriage and/or the relevant conventions and galactic treaties as a clause.

And I didn't say there wouldn't be compensation. But I can't think there'll be a lot of it, because the number is likely enormous.

And you expect people will be planning on doing business with the criminals again?

Have you ever had a contractor rip you off? Did you feel like you wanted to do business with them again? Or did you decide you don't want to pay scumbags and criminals to steal from you again?

Again, not criminals. That would only apply if they had violated the law and since those were Manticore-flagged ships and the legitimate order came from the Manticore government, no Manticore laws were broken. At worst, they violated their contracts and could be sued at a proper court of law (read: in the SEM).

Some systems may pass or may have always had laws saying that if such a contract were violated and no compensation paid, then the violator would not be allowed business in the system again. Others may choose not to do business with Manticore-flagged ships on principle, or on advice of their insurance, or any other reason.

But it's likely the majority will choose to do business with them for the same reasons they did business before Lacöon: because the shipping was faster and/or cheaper. Manticore Merchant Marine shipping had a strategic advantage that did not go away.

And yes, I've had packages go missing with many different mailing and shipping companies. Most of the time, those did not indemnify me. Sometimes when I've shipped, I looked up the insured value and it was usually a very low one. And I can't be sure of what exactly it said, but I remember it saying something about not being liable for loss due to war. Moreover, there are many places in our world where mail or at least the last-mile delivery is still a state monopoly: if you want to ship to those places, you don't have a choice on who will carry your goods.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Has there ever been any government in history that had more cash than it knew what to use it for? There's no such thing.

Yes, Manticore can pay for it, if needed. But they won't want to because instead of paying for them, they can lower taxes and/or redirect to other programmes, especially education and infrastructure in both Silesia and Talbott. We know that Manticore has afforded the cost of the three wars by increasing the transit fees in the Junction as well as a war-time income tax. However low it might have been, it was not zero and the population is expecting that number to go down now that the active wars are over.

And of course if they can redirect that money ins those education and infrastructure programs in Talbott and Silesia then by a decade down the line they'll be in a lot better place than they would be if they spent that money on ships that their own Admiralty wants to mothball.

Money put into infrastructure and education to bring the economies, education, and skill levels of their new territories up to the standard of the rest of the SEM will pay economic and manpower benefits many-fold over the years. As those economies grow that lets you get a larger more robust tax base and now you can afford more without continuing to disproportionately tax the inhabitants of the Manticoran Binary system -- and with more skill personnel you can afford to recruit more of them into the military while keeping the impact on the rest of the empire's economy low.

(And of course that investment is the right thing to do; the thing Manticore promised when it took over those places; improves domestic stability and relations; all in addition to providing a better base for manning and funding any necessary future military growth)