"Why are you still alive?"

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:I do not understand why the latest cover story has not been published to the people of Darius; that they are the good guys and Galton was "evil" (with a wink and a nod to those that know better). Are they waiting for a report on the fall? Couple that with a few private words to the group that worked on Galton's defense, something about "loose lips" leading to bad performance reviews (although it was stupid for anyone at Darius to work on Galton's defense). Then Gail is only a security risk if she talks to outsiders about her work.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Would that work? Presumably there's some level of communication between the free people on Darius and that includes MAN officers. OpSec would demand they talk little about what the spider is and does, but it would get back to the general populace that those people did participate in Oyster Bay, wouldn't it? Their families would know they were gone for months around that time.

But once everyone "knows" that Galton was responsible; they just need an additional cover story, such as spying on Galton, to cut down on gossip. After all, Galton has taken credit for Oyster Bay and the attacks on Beowulf. The Grand Alliance should be able to find ample documentation for this in the captured databases (otherwise what was the point?).

But to make this work, it seems to make the Leonard Detweiler ships superfluous. They cannot be used to attack anyone, because then the sacrifice of Galton is undone.

I have said many times that it won't matter about the Cat being out of the bag when the Spiders are ready to hatch. I would imagine Galton's sacrifice is only intended to give the Spiders time to hatch. The LDs will let the Cat out of the bag themselves when they attack.

Galton could turn on Darius if the GA feeds them news that the once radio-free Galton was deaf to. Which means that Galton could become a target for the MAN in time. Especially if Darius is feeding fake news to its citizens that Galton is the bad seed. I don't think it would be prudent to attack Galton, and certainly not before surprising the GA. But, it is difficult to get inside the head of alien thinking.

As my Grandmother often said, "We shall see".

cthia wrote:I have said many times that it won't matter about the Cat being out of the bag when the Spiders are ready to hatch. I would imagine Galton's sacrifice is only intended to give the Spiders time to hatch. The LDs will let the Cat out of the bag themselves when they attack.

That, I imagine, is their plan. Sacrifice Galton to gain more time to put things back on track. When they are on track, the fact that Galton was sacrificed won't matter.

The problem with that is that they're going to get discovered before they're ready. So it will be all for naught, unless they've sent those LDs and their shipyards away from Darius and thus have left the planet & system practically defenceless. Then again, I imagine their calculation is that if they are found, then it's all going down the drain anyway.

tlb wrote:But once everyone "knows" that Galton was responsible; they just need an additional cover story, such as spying on Galton, to cut down on gossip. After all, Galton has taken credit for Oyster Bay and the attacks on Beowulf. The Grand Alliance should be able to find ample documentation for this in the captured databases (otherwise what was the point?).

Indeed. The question before us is how good that information will be. Our current discussion is that there'll just be too many holes in the Galton capabilities and captured databases and the GA and the SL Intel services will see through it.

Will it be enough to sway Galactic opinion? Maybe not. But that also doesn't matter, at least for the next decade, because The Good Guys will know the truth, despite public opinion, and will know those stealth ships using this so-called "Spider Drive" are out there. They have proof they exist and they have proof they weren't produced in Galton. Ergo, they were produced elsewhere.

Now that at least the SLN intelligence is onboard with the GA as far as acknowledging the Alignment exists and stories are possibly circulating about Galton being the Bad Guys vs a "good Alignment" though not the non-bad guy Mesa version that is now public, where does The Plan stand?
The Alignment is not cloaked in this multi-layer of the Onion any more as far as more than a few people outside of it are concerned. They exist....the GA and the SL are actively hunting it.

Sure, Galton has been devastated and was constructed (if not set up and later modified to be the scapegoat as well as arms supplier) but how is the Alignment supposed to twist everything into a narrative that will present themselves as the (remote and untouchable ) saviors of Humanity at this point.
We have been hanging on the edge of when and where and how the LDs will be sent out to participate in the next round. But is that happening any time soon. We have the cover story/new narrative revealed to everybody's favorite investigatorial journalist - which is truly aimed right at her to stiffen her fervor in support of the Alignment...the "good one" which is shocked and deeply saddened by the evil offshoot that was Galton (for which they, of course, were unable to do anything about over centuries) which has been the only source of all the hate and destruction now being attributed to The Alignment. And just whom is Audrey supposed to share this revelation too? Who can she tell without saying "I have information" -which she can't reveal of course, must protect sources- but there was this shadowy meeting and even though she knows (recall the faked assisanation attempt on her) the Alignment does some really sticky things.
The RF is a long way from coming out of the shadows as a force for the advancement of The Detweiler Philosophy. Heck, only a tiny portion of the population of the original (unrevealed) member systems has any idea that they are working on the Philosophy and why they are using it.
Having LDs visit death and destruction on systems infrastructure (and worse) by invisible starships would't be a great way to say....We're from the the people who have been trashing systems and killing billions and we are here to save your remnants for being our subjects.

I think they need to rethink the time frame of The Plan.

Brigade XO wrote:Now that at least the SLN intelligence is onboard with the GA as far as acknowledging the Alignment exists and stories are possibly circulating about Galton being the Bad Guys vs a "good Alignment" though not the non-bad guy Mesa version that is now public, where does The Plan stand?

It is, and I quote Benjamin Detweiler, "well and truly off the rails."

Sure, Galton has been devastated and was constructed (if not set up and later modified to be the scapegoat as well as arms supplier) but how is the Alignment supposed to twist everything into a narrative that will present themselves as the (remote and untouchable ) saviors of Humanity at this point.

They were never meant to be presented as that. At no point did the genetic uplifting get presented as saving humanity, I think.

The RF was supposed to be the saviour of civilisation in the midst of the chaos of wars. And, in the process of absorbing all the civilised systems, cause the genetic modifications to simply become fait accompli by the time the dust settled. Then the Onion would begin the process of speciation and turn themselves as the rulers of Humanity.

We have been hanging on the edge of when and where and how the LDs will be sent out to participate in the next round. But is that happening any time soon. We have the cover story/new narrative revealed to everybody's favorite investigatorial journalist - which is truly aimed right at her to stiffen her fervor in support of the Alignment...the "good one" which is shocked and deeply saddened by the evil offshoot that was Galton (for which they, of course, were unable to do anything about over centuries) which has been the only source of all the hate and destruction now being attributed to The Alignment. And just whom is Audrey supposed to share this revelation too? Who can she tell without saying "I have information" -which she can't reveal of course, must protect sources- but there was this shadowy meeting and even though she knows (recall the faked assisanation attempt on her) the Alignment does some really sticky things.

And how could she justify the good alignment being the source of such a terror? Her handler "call me Phoebe" would need to spin up a story that those attacks are not by their Alignment, but by some other, outside force. Just, how? Audrey is smart enough to connect the dots between whatever those stealth attacks are and what happened to Manticore during the Yawata Strike. And that's if she's not given access to intel during the capture of Galton that the ships that conducted that Strike weren't found.

The RF is a long way from coming out of the shadows as a force for the advancement of The Detweiler Philosophy. Heck, only a tiny portion of the population of the original (unrevealed) member systems has any idea that they are working on the Philosophy and why they are using it.
Having LDs visit death and destruction on systems infrastructure (and worse) by invisible starships would't be a great way to say....We're from the the people who have been trashing systems and killing billions and we are here to save your remnants for being our subjects.

I think they need to rethink the time frame of The Plan.

Actually, the Philosophy, as you call it, is fine. The old Benign Alignment, a.k.a. the Enlightenment, was and continues to be pursuing it. And they're now in the open. I've said this before: I think the Enlightenment, and the Detweiler Philosophy, are actually the single biggest threat to the Plan portion that puts the Detweilers as the "one ring to rule them all." The more the Enlightenment achieves in actually allowing for uplift to the massed, the less the benefit of the RF and the Alignment's version of it will be. So why should people put up with whatever twisted version of uplift those propose if they can simply take the Enlightenment's?

It accomplishes the fait accompli that I said the RF wanted, but without the Inner Onion pulling the strings behind it. It accomplishes what the Alignment says they want, not what they actually want.

And connecting another dot in this thread... Jessica Milliken probably knows the public version of the Alignment's plan for humanity uplift. So if the GA gets her in a room with Arianne McBryde and gets her to sign up for the Enlightenment's vision, she could really turn. She may find herself saying "we're accomplishing all we said we wanted without the need for more bloodshed, so let's make sure the lunatics on Darius who thought they needed bloodshed understand reality."

And then if the LDs come out? Then she turns completely.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Now that at least the SLN intelligence is onboard with the GA as far as acknowledging the Alignment exists and stories are possibly circulating about Galton being the Bad Guys vs a "good Alignment" though not the non-bad guy Mesa version that is now public, where does The Plan stand?

It is, and I quote Benjamin Detweiler, "well and truly off the rails."

Sure, Galton has been devastated and was constructed (if not set up and later modified to be the scapegoat as well as arms supplier) but how is the Alignment supposed to twist everything into a narrative that will present themselves as the (remote and untouchable ) saviors of Humanity at this point.

They were never meant to be presented as that. At no point did the genetic uplifting get presented as saving humanity, I think.

The RF was supposed to be the saviour of civilisation in the midst of the chaos of wars. And, in the process of absorbing all the civilised systems, cause the genetic modifications to simply become fait accompli by the time the dust settled. Then the Onion would begin the process of speciation and turn themselves as the rulers of Humanity.

We have been hanging on the edge of when and where and how the LDs will be sent out to participate in the next round. But is that happening any time soon. We have the cover story/new narrative revealed to everybody's favorite investigatorial journalist - which is truly aimed right at her to stiffen her fervor in support of the Alignment...the "good one" which is shocked and deeply saddened by the evil offshoot that was Galton (for which they, of course, were unable to do anything about over centuries) which has been the only source of all the hate and destruction now being attributed to The Alignment. And just whom is Audrey supposed to share this revelation too? Who can she tell without saying "I have information" -which she can't reveal of course, must protect sources- but there was this shadowy meeting and even though she knows (recall the faked assisanation attempt on her) the Alignment does some really sticky things.

And how could she justify the good alignment being the source of such a terror? Her handler "call me Phoebe" would need to spin up a story that those attacks are not by their Alignment, but by some other, outside force. Just, how? Audrey is smart enough to connect the dots between whatever those stealth attacks are and what happened to Manticore during the Yawata Strike. And that's if she's not given access to intel during the capture of Galton that the ships that conducted that Strike weren't found.

The RF is a long way from coming out of the shadows as a force for the advancement of The Detweiler Philosophy. Heck, only a tiny portion of the population of the original (unrevealed) member systems has any idea that they are working on the Philosophy and why they are using it.
Having LDs visit death and destruction on systems infrastructure (and worse) by invisible starships would't be a great way to say....We're from the the people who have been trashing systems and killing billions and we are here to save your remnants for being our subjects.

I think they need to rethink the time frame of The Plan.

Actually, the Philosophy, as you call it, is fine. The old Benign Alignment, a.k.a. the Enlightenment, was and continues to be pursuing it. And they're now in the open. I've said this before: I think the Enlightenment, and the Detweiler Philosophy, are actually the single biggest threat to the Plan portion that puts the Detweilers as the "one ring to rule them all." The more the Enlightenment achieves in actually allowing for uplift to the massed, the less the benefit of the RF and the Alignment's version of it will be. So why should people put up with whatever twisted version of uplift those propose if they can simply take the Enlightenment's?

It accomplishes the fait accompli that I said the RF wanted, but without the Inner Onion pulling the strings behind it. It accomplishes what the Alignment says they want, not what they actually want.

And connecting another dot in this thread... Jessica Milliken probably knows the public version of the Alignment's plan for humanity uplift. So if the GA gets her in a room with Arianne McBryde and gets her to sign up for the Enlightenment's vision, she could really turn. She may find herself saying "we're accomplishing all we said we wanted without the need for more bloodshed, so let's make sure the lunatics on Darius who thought they needed bloodshed understand reality."

And then if the LDs come out? Then she turns completely.

My only real question continues to be how they expect the populace as a whole to adopt genetic uplift as part of this? Everything else "kinda sorta make sense" in a way... The plans do follow.. "logically", but they more resemble a well worn 40 year old tee shirt stored in a moth jar (holey, with the little h) than they do a well thought out plan.

The Genetic uplift bit is more like an Underpants Gnome Plan (Steal Underpants ==> ????? ==> Profit) . To make something most consider heinous, you must really make them feel there is no viable alternative but the Heinous - or any other action is More heinous than the act in question. The only situation I can see where the masses would want to accept genetic uplift is a situation where death is the only alternative - like a plague. Any other instance I can think of would take generations of genetic tampering across the board, then announcing "We've been doing it already - isn't everything ok?" and riding the shockwave of the backlash to where ever it takes you.

Quotes pruned to avoid the stacking limit

My only real question continues to be how they expect the populace as a whole to adopt genetic uplift as part of this? Everything else "kinda sorta make sense" in a way... The plans do follow.. "logically", but they more resemble a well worn 40 year old tee shirt stored in a moth jar (holey, with the little h) than they do a well thought out plan.

The Genetic uplift bit is more like an Underpants Gnome Plan (Steal Underpants ==> ????? ==> Profit) . To make something most consider heinous, you must really make them feel there is no viable alternative but the Heinous - or any other action is More heinous than the act in question. The only situation I can see where the masses would want to accept genetic uplift is a situation where death is the only alternative - like a plague. Any other instance I can think of would take generations of genetic tampering across the board, then announcing "We've been doing it already - isn't everything ok?" and riding the shockwave of the backlash to where ever it takes you.

The way you do uplift is the way it is now being done on earth. You start with the most negative available genes, for example the genes that lead to thalasemia, Tay-Sachs disease, and sickle cell anemia. Sickle cell gene mending is now being done at least on a few people. Then you keep identifying negative genes, and replacing them with the best known substitutes.[/quote]

phillies wrote:Quotes pruned to avoid the stacking limit

My only real question continues to be how they expect the populace as a whole to adopt genetic uplift as part of this? Everything else "kinda sorta make sense" in a way... The plans do follow.. "logically", but they more resemble a well worn 40 year old tee shirt stored in a moth jar (holey, with the little h) than they do a well thought out plan.

The Genetic uplift bit is more like an Underpants Gnome Plan (Steal Underpants ==> ????? ==> Profit) . To make something most consider heinous, you must really make them feel there is no viable alternative but the Heinous - or any other action is More heinous than the act in question. The only situation I can see where the masses would want to accept genetic uplift is a situation where death is the only alternative - like a plague. Any other instance I can think of would take generations of genetic tampering across the board, then announcing "We've been doing it already - isn't everything ok?" and riding the shockwave of the backlash to where ever it takes you.

The way you do uplift is the way it is now being done on earth. You start with the most negative available genes, for example the genes that lead to thalasemia, Tay-Sachs disease, and sickle cell anemia. Sickle cell gene mending is now being done at least on a few people. Then you keep identifying negative genes, and replacing them with the best known substitutes.

[/quote]

Which is my second instance - generations of tampering - sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly. But in the Honorverse 1st and second world nations, that editing is already allowed and issues fixed generations ago. Genetic medicine has become tweaking existing solutions to overcome nature's amazing way to work around that which has been fixed. Even withthe slow approach, people will balk if you go too far, or too fast.

Besides, a multigenerational phase will now take hundreds of years due to Prolong. Some impetus to speed it up is almost required.

Theemile wrote:My only real question continues to be how they expect the populace as a whole to adopt genetic uplift as part of this? Everything else "kinda sorta make sense" in a way... The plans do follow.. "logically", but they more resemble a well worn 40 year old tee shirt stored in a moth jar (holey, with the little h) than they do a well thought out plan.

Why wouldn't everyone sign up to be taller, healthier, smarter, live longer, have a full head of hair (eradicate male baldness)? The vast majority of the population will accept all those "benign" benefits without batting much of an eye, if the environment is that this is allowed, safe, and already in practice.

Of course, the MAlign's objective is not to uplift the entire humanity, but to create strata of different people. But that won't be in the brochure. They would want to insert the best modifications to a restricted few and they may insert unwanted modifications to everyone else. Make everyone more docile and obedient?

The Genetic uplift bit is more like an Underpants Gnome Plan (Steal Underpants ==> ????? ==> Profit) . To make something most consider heinous, you must really make them feel there is no viable alternative but the Heinous - or any other action is More heinous than the act in question.

Or you remove the "heinous" perception. That's where I think the RF comes in: by having done it, having shown it's a GoodThing™ and by having always and expressly been against genetic slavery, they would want to show it's not, in fact, heinous.