Attacking Darius:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:So yeah, in the right situations it seems like suspicious freighters (any of which might have had concealed weaponry) have repeatedly been allowed much closer to single enemy warships than a spider ship could ever hope to sneak. (However the Spider can probably get closer to an entire task force or fleet than an unknown freighter can -- generally they're only allowed close to relatively light warships; and those screening units would be detached to inspect or drive off any unknown freighter trying to too closely approach a task force or fleet)

Indeed. All the examples were one-on-one approaches. No one can approach a fleet without first going through escorts because the fleet is such a valuable target. So I dispute that a spider-driven ship would get to within 1 light-second of a fleet.

If the MAN wants to dedicate 15-million-tonne ships to destroy ships 1/10th their size operating in isolation, be my guest. That's a huge waste of firepower and allocation of resources.

As for the short range crazy acceleration missiles. I don't see a normal warship making room for them in its magazines -- it's too niche a use case for them to justify giving up that many of their conventional missiles. But a dedicated Q-ship's disguise requires it to be far larger than any light warships -- even a small Q-ship is still at least 50% bigger than a Nike-class BC(L)! So they've lots of room to carry specialty munitions if they think that'll give them a significantly better chance to avoid capture or destruction by a suspicious warship. (Now Q-ships themselves are so niche that a navy probably wouldn't devote massive amounts of R&D into weapons that would only benefit them; but if they happened to have such weapons the Q-ship's got plenty of extra room to carry them)

Why waste space creating a missile than has a finite acceleration when you can fire a light-speed weapon that has infinite acceleration? Unless there's an FTL detector closer by and the ranges are close to the outside limits of the weapon, you can't see the shot coming in the first place.

We've calculated this before, by the way. A 1-million-gravity missile covers 122,583 km in 5 seconds. That's well within range of detection breakthrough for spider ships, if not inside the formation of escort ships and LACs. In 10 seconds, it could cover 4x that, but then you also give 2x more time for PDLCs to come online and fire. I'd even venture that 5 seconds is plenty for the PDLCs to power up and fire. And note that those missiles are launched from inside the PDLC basket range, so even if it takes 3 seconds to power up and fire at missiles launched from 150 Mm away, those missiles have covered only 44129 km and are moving at only 0.10c. They're easy prey for the PDLCs, which will probably fire multiple times (wasn't it 16 shots per 2 seconds?). A single missile will not destroy a frigate; you need a broadside per destroyer and scale up from there. So not only do you need a million-gravity missile, you need them to be small enough that they could be launched in significant quantity if you're trying to take out more than one ship.

Not to mention that the launching ship is within range of ALL the target ship's energy weapons. Those missile launches from tubes are extremely localiseable, so the target ship will put some energy shots at it. You don't want a Dazzler exploding at 10,000 km from your own hull (1.42 seconds' flight time) because that's going to blot out all your sensors AND illuminate your entire ship for everyone else to see. This means ECM is also pretty limited for those missiles.

This tactic is, at best, a pyrrhic victory for the LD. It may destroy a ship or two that is a tenth its size, but it will have sustained some damage to the hull in the process, which compromises its stealth and therefore renders it mission-incapable for the next attempt at this tactic until hull repairs are performed.

A better tactic would be to launch missile pods and torpedoes from further out and control them in. If the torpedoes can manoeuvre freely against an unsuspecting target, they could line up to up-the-kilt or down-the-thread shots and take out a full light cruiser or destroyer squadron. A sufficient quantity of those could even take out a heavy cruiser squadron, but then the law of averages says that the chance of random detection increases too.

I don't see this stealth tactic working as described against superdreadnoughts in formation, unless that's a mothball formation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:So yeah, in the right situations it seems like suspicious freighters (any of which might have had concealed weaponry) have repeatedly been allowed much closer to single enemy warships than a spider ship could ever hope to sneak. (However the Spider can probably get closer to an entire task force or fleet than an unknown freighter can -- generally they're only allowed close to relatively light warships; and those screening units would be detached to inspect or drive off any unknown freighter trying to too closely approach a task force or fleet)

Indeed. All the examples were one-on-one approaches. No one can approach a fleet without first going through escorts because the fleet is such a valuable target. So I dispute that a spider-driven ship would get to within 1 light-second of a fleet.

If the MAN wants to dedicate 15-million-tonne ships to destroy ships 1/10th their size operating in isolation, be my guest. That's a huge waste of firepower and allocation of resources.

As for the short range crazy acceleration missiles. I don't see a normal warship making room for them in its magazines -- it's too niche a use case for them to justify giving up that many of their conventional missiles. But a dedicated Q-ship's disguise requires it to be far larger than any light warships -- even a small Q-ship is still at least 50% bigger than a Nike-class BC(L)! So they've lots of room to carry specialty munitions if they think that'll give them a significantly better chance to avoid capture or destruction by a suspicious warship. (Now Q-ships themselves are so niche that a navy probably wouldn't devote massive amounts of R&D into weapons that would only benefit them; but if they happened to have such weapons the Q-ship's got plenty of extra room to carry them)

Why waste space creating a missile than has a finite acceleration when you can fire a light-speed weapon that has infinite acceleration? Unless there's an FTL detector closer by and the ranges are close to the outside limits of the weapon, you can't see the shot coming in the first place.

We've calculated this before, by the way. A 1-million-gravity missile covers 122,583 km in 5 seconds. That's well within range of detection breakthrough for spider ships, if not inside the formation of escort ships and LACs. In 10 seconds, it could cover 4x that, but then you also give 2x more time for PDLCs to come online and fire. I'd even venture that 5 seconds is plenty for the PDLCs to power up and fire. And note that those missiles are launched from inside the PDLC basket range, so even if it takes 3 seconds to power up and fire at missiles launched from 150 Mm away, those missiles have covered only 44129 km and are moving at only 0.10c. They're easy prey for the PDLCs, which will probably fire multiple times (wasn't it 16 shots per 2 seconds?). A single missile will not destroy a frigate; you need a broadside per destroyer and scale up from there. So not only do you need a million-gravity missile, you need them to be small enough that they could be launched in significant quantity if you're trying to take out more than one ship.

Not to mention that the launching ship is within range of ALL the target ship's energy weapons. Those missile launches from tubes are extremely localiseable, so the target ship will put some energy shots at it. You don't want a Dazzler exploding at 10,000 km from your own hull (1.42 seconds' flight time) because that's going to blot out all your sensors AND illuminate your entire ship for everyone else to see. This means ECM is also pretty limited for those missiles.

This tactic is, at best, a pyrrhic victory for the LD. It may destroy a ship or two that is a tenth its size, but it will have sustained some damage to the hull in the process, which compromises its stealth and therefore renders it mission-incapable for the next attempt at this tactic until hull repairs are performed.

A better tactic would be to launch missile pods and torpedoes from further out and control them in. If the torpedoes can manoeuvre freely against an unsuspecting target, they could line up to up-the-kilt or down-the-thread shots and take out a full light cruiser or destroyer squadron. A sufficient quantity of those could even take out a heavy cruiser squadron, but then the law of averages says that the chance of random detection increases too.

I don't see this stealth tactic working as described against superdreadnoughts in formation, unless that's a mothball formation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Oh, I agree that I don't see any use for such a missile for a Lenny Det.

I was going down the silly rabbit hole of them just for Q-ships. And even there they're only useful if the ship can launch enough of them to cold-clock a single cruiser or DD from slightly outside energy range. Kill it quickly enough that the warship can't many of its own (normal) missiles off in reply.

But if the Q-ship can rely on an inspecting warship to come into energy range before attempting to board, then it doesn't need magic missiles -- it just needs massive grasers like Wayfarer et al. carried. Where the magic missiles would be useful is against an inspecting warship that's suspicious enough to hold back 20% or so beyond energy range and send in a pinnace for boarding and inspection. At that range the Q-ship is very likely to lose a straight up missile duel; but it's also unlikely to be able to force the engagement into energy range. So a sucker punch weapon might be its only way to escape.


Even so, as I said, I can't see a navy putting R&D into that.

But a Lenny Det seems like a sniper; not a brawler. It should be using graser torps or missile pods to pick off enemies from range -- not sneaking so close that it'll likely be detected the moment it fires and immediately subject to counter-battery fire. So the MAlign definitely shouldn't be wasting R&D on these things for their spiders.

cthia wrote:I think it is time I give up the Ghost on this, pun intended. But I never imagined this missile as the main armament. I am thinking of them as opportunists. Brought along by Providence or necessity.

And I don't imagine them being fired only through ship borne launchers, but fired from ejectable pods after the LD has retreated. Before the shit hits the fan.

If an LD finds itself crowded, for instance when it controls the orbitals, or is about to, it may not want to fire position-revealing energy weapons unless as a last resort. But ejectable pods with these missiles might do the trick.

As large a ship as the LD, they should be able to store enough of them, in case opportunity or necessity presents itself like Harkness's old-fashioned nukes.

And if you are forced to fire missiles from close range, then an expedient version is recommended. Also, why not use an LD to kick the ever loving shit out of a single BC or three if it is too close to the web. Although, I am none too sure energy fire will be seen. If nobody else is in the forest will the resultant explosions or energy weapons (be heard) or seen?

When the MA's instigation operation (for lack of memory) destroyed the space station that made Byng go nuts, they were complaining about not seeing any sign of energy weapons or a missile launch. Although we as readers know it was because there was neither, I seem to recall they didn't expect to see an energy weapon at that range.

There are times that even a sniper needs the skills to brawl to extricate himself out of a sticky situation.

cthia wrote:And if you are forced to fire missiles from close range, then an expedient version is recommended. Also, why not use an LD to kick the ever loving shit out of a single BC or three if it is too close to the web. Although, I am none too sure energy fire will be seen. If nobody else is in the forest will the resultant explosions or energy weapons (be heard) or seen?

When the MA's instigation operation (for lack of memory) destroyed the space station that made Byng go nuts, they were complaining about not seeing any sign of energy weapons or a missile launch. Although we as readers know it was because there was neither, I seem to recall they didn't expect to see an energy weapon at that range.

There are times that even a sniper needs the skills to brawl to extricate himself out of a sticky situation.

Brigade XO wrote:Short range, hyper fast missiles......how about asking what is the Minimum Arming distance for an anti-ship missile?
Not really to suggest the solution that the Russian Captain chose in Hunt for Red October --removing the safeties on the computer so it was essentially armed in the tube because Red October was WAY inside of normal "safe" targeting distance.
But if you have a ship x distance and you were far enough away that you could launch a missile (with all it's targeting information loaded) how far does the missile have to travel such that it's laser head deploys its lasing rods and then detonates the warhead. Your not too concerned about the nuclear detonation as it isn't going to propagate in space but you need to be within the engagement rage of the WARHEAD.
Think of it like firing one of the New Jersey's 16" naval rifles with an HE round at somebody's destroyer or cruiser at 1/2 a mile? Or you whipped out a 12ga shotgun and shot a guy with body armor at 20 feet.
Will the opponent be able to react... if it is with a cruiser or SD grade current RMN laser head, you are probably going to at least ventilate anybody else's ship if not inflict catastrophic damage.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:I think it is time I give up the Ghost on this, pun intended. But I never imagined this missile as the main armament. I am thinking of them as opportunists. Brought along by Providence or necessity.

And I don't imagine them being fired only through ship borne launchers, but fired from ejectable pods after the LD has retreated. Before the shit hits the fan.

If an LD finds itself crowded, for instance when it controls the orbitals, or is about to, it may not want to fire position-revealing energy weapons unless as a last resort. But ejectable pods with these missiles might do the trick.

As large a ship as the LD, they should be able to store enough of them, in case opportunity or necessity presents itself like Harkness's old-fashioned nukes.

And if you are forced to fire missiles from close range, then an expedient version is recommended. Also, why not use an LD to kick the ever loving shit out of a single BC or three if it is too close to the web. Although, I am none too sure energy fire will be seen. If nobody else is in the forest will the resultant explosions or energy weapons (be heard) or seen?

When the MA's instigation operation (for lack of memory) destroyed the space station that made Byng go nuts, they were complaining about not seeing any sign of energy weapons or a missile launch. Although we as readers know it was because there was neither, I seem to recall they didn't expect to see an energy weapon at that range.

There are times that even a sniper needs the skills to brawl to extricate himself out of a sticky situation.

We've been told specifically in text that the LDs have tubes to fire Gtorps - since they have a range of months of endurance, having them fire from pods after the ship leaves is a pointless extravagence - which is not to say that the LD's don't ALSO have Gtorps in pods, because we know they are also podlaunchers, and will have Cataphract and Ninurta missiles in Pods.

Side note, as I wrote this, I noticed a Pattern - Cataphract and Ninurta and both Persian/Syrian references for devices made by Genetically modified Supermen. In Star Trek, Khan was a middle eastern genetically modified superman who tried to take over the world, and Kirk's ship twice (or thrice). Is this an Easter Egg?

kzt wrote:Whether you can fire a small missile out of larger tube really goes to whether the missile designers made provision for this, or someone else installed the capability in the tube.

The missile has to be powered up and get a guidance package in the tube. No idea how this happens, could be a physical connection, could be some sort of short range radio. If the two missiles are not compatible and nobody added the package to the tube, then no.

Jonathan_S wrote:Most likely, with enough work, any smaller missile could have such an adaptor built for it as long as the launch tube can provide compatible power. (So you're not going to be launching Mk16 micro-fusion powered DDM from an old SD, since its tubes are designed for firing capacitor powered missiles, even if the Mk16 might be small enough to physically fit into an old capital-grade anti-ship missile tube)

However unless the missile is sufficiently smaller to at least double-pack into the adaptor you're not going to benefit from its smaller size. Doesn't mater if the adaptor is 40% empty space; it is still taking up a full anti-ship missile's slot in the magazines; which means you're trading off large missiles for small one on a 1-for-1 basis. (Which doesn't seem a winning combination)