Attacking Darius:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Well, essentially I agree with you both, well, with the exception of "David not using too much handwavium." I can't agree with that when trampling all over relativity.

Well, how much handwavium is too much is a subjective topic. I can't tell you what your limit should be, that's only up to you. Conversely, that will also set the limit of how much an author must stick to their own rules in their universes.

For me, I like when the handwavium is kept to a minimum after the first third of the first book. Once we're introduced to the rules, stick to them. I don't have a problem with technological progress or even serendipitous breakthroughs, but they have to still follow the rules set forth in that first third. And I dislike when the author cheats by having the technology given for free by the regular trope of wise, ancient race (especially those that are pacifists and require humans to do the fighting).

[By the way, David Brin wrote "The Ancient Ones" where he explored the topic of what would happen if the "wise, ancient race" were humans. I think it's a topic not well explored in Sci-Fi and has a nice ring to it]

David is really good at keeping to his own rules, in all the universes of his that I've read. Some of them have more handwavium than others, but it's usually a set up to the story and then goes away (like time travel in "Apocalypse Troll"), or the rules are set so that there's a lot of leeway in the first place ("Out of the Dark"). In the Honorverse in particular, he's been very tight with what's allowed.

That's all to say I doubt that he'll be introducing even more unexpected and un-foreshadowed technological breakthroughs than he already has. Having the MAlign genetically engineer their crews to sustain higher accelerations and heavier doses of radiation? Sure, that's completely believable because that's a natural extension of what has already been established. Some other offshoot technology related to tractor/pressor beams? I can accept that, because it's an area the MAlign has extensive research on and is far ahead of anyone else. Incremental improvements on wedges I could take too, because we've established that it's possible all along.

Another aspect that David is VERY good at (possibly the best at) is figuring out the other consequences this technology would have, militarily as well as not.

Which is why I balk at 10x improvements in missile accelerations. That's a revolutionary improvement, not incremental. It's something we ought to have expected from the people who have been doing bleeding-edge research on wedges and compensators (the Alliance), not from someone catching up. It's something that, if it existed, would change tactics and strategy considerably, not just missiles. And finally, it would come out of the blue.

Now, it's not impossible. He's established in the HV that the one catching up could go down paths no one else had thought of because "that's just the way things are done" (q.v. Grayson-inspired compensators, but also the streak drive). And the clues could be there already, but not noticed by us even though we're using the fine tooth comb, because if there's another thing David is good at is burying the hints -- and that's when he doesn't completely misdirect us in the first place. Evidence 1: Thomas Theisman. Or in the other thread: is Jessica Milliken a red herring?

But what I was trying to convey that both of you missed, is that it wouldn't break the hard rule of suddenly developing these breakthroughs, because the MA are "aliens from another Galaxy," so to speak. Their streak drive and spider drive proves it. So, the Haven sector's tech wouldn't suddenly skip unforeseen iterations.

I disagree on their being "aliens from another Galaxy" for two reasons. One, they're clearly humans and working from the same cultural baggage, inserted into the same Galactic community. The Inner Onion might hold themselves at a distance, but the researchers are people who used to have lives on Mesa for the most part, watched TV and exchanged emails with off-planet people every now and again. They don't have a radically different way of thinking. And two, because the "technology falls on our laps from wise, ancient ones" is not something David appears to use at all.

But I agree that there could be breakthroughs to be had. I just find it unlikely that this will be the case, given all I said above.

These developments would have been going on completely separately from that sector and its paradigms. And they were being developed behind the scenes and planned to be a part of a centuries long conspiracy with the research also carried on for centuries. Centuries in development can hardly be considered suddenly. The Haven sector would have been completely oblivious to each new development and iteration, until the wine was ready to be served. The MA were simply able to keep their developments under wraps until needed because they were not in a war. As the RMN wished they could have saved the unveiling of some of their tech.

No, it couldn't be and isn't "completely separately from that sector" because the Alignment is not completely separate. They are spying on the Haven sector for one thing. So they contaminate themselves with the ideas coming out of there. Plus, I don't think the Darius Onion are military experts in the first place (Galton was), so they'd rely heavily on outside experts. One or two geniuses like Gail might be aren't sufficient to do everything in complete isolation.

So, I agree that it would appear to be suddenly to the Haven sector, but centuries in development does not an argument for sudden make. It is totally unfair to the MA and storyline. Even if the MA had to reverse engineer some Haven sector tech.

"Centuries in development" runs afoul of David's proclivity to give us hints that it's coming and we've seen none. As I disclaimed above, it might already be there and we missed it, but I don't think so.

I need to add another disclaimer though: it's clear that the LDs as we currently understand them are poor space-supremacy vessels. There MUST be more about the tactics they will use and that usually means technology we're not aware of. But I expect that to be more of the incremental kind, not the revolutionary one.

It is likewise with the discussion about the RMN not wanting to use CM pods. You can not attribute that thinking to a completely different enemy. Or expect the author to.

We're now exploring it, while David already has his conclusions. We may find out in the next book that the GF did adopt them, or we may find out that they found it a nice idea but didn't need to because they had something better or no need for it.

This is actually a good example of believable innovation. Pods did exist, CMs did exist. The Galton military simply combined two existing technologies in a way no one had previously done. The use of missile pods themselves were a Black Swan Event: before it, it hadn't occurred to almost anyone; after it, it's obvious. The same goes for the Hasta: combine a stealth recon drone with a missile launcher. And ditto for both the Mistletoe and Silver Bullet, which David tells us were developed independently from one another but were based on the same principles.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which is why I balk at 10x improvements in missile accelerations. That's a revolutionary improvement, not incremental. It's something we ought to have expected from the people who have been doing bleeding-edge research on wedges and compensators (the Alliance), not from someone catching up. It's something that, if it existed, would change tactics and strategy considerably, not just missiles. And finally, it would come out of the blue.

cthia wrote:But I still can not agree on this one issue ...

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which is why I balk at 10x improvements in missile accelerations. That's a revolutionary improvement, not incremental. It's something we ought to have expected from the people who have been doing bleeding-edge research on wedges and compensators (the Alliance), not from someone catching up. It's something that, if it existed, would change tactics and strategy considerably, not just missiles. And finally, it would come out of the blue.

It would only be a revolutionary improvement because the RMN did not need missiles that were short lived. In fact, the goal was to always develop longer ranged missiles to keep the range open and punch outside the enemy's range. It is more like revolutionary thinking.

Conventional warships would never get so close that it might need to shoot its wad quickly. It would be dead before it was allowed to close the range that much, because you can see them coming.

Like the prizefighter George Foreman, they tend to broadcast that haymaker that starts coming at you from as far away as Timbuktu. So that revolutionary improvement wouldn't have been an avenue the RMN would deem worth wasting its time on.

The LDs can get awfully close to an opponent. This area of research would appeal to them.

I think the difference between you and I is that you think the breakthrough is beyond the ability of conventional navies. I don't. It is simply outside their need and doctrine. After all, why develop a missile to be fired at knife fighting, energy weapons range.

Even the acceleration of GA missiles is talked about in this light. Paraphrasing "Sir, if their current acceleration holds up, yatta yatta yatta." Like a prize fighter, the missiles have to pace themselves. If maximum range is your objective, you are going to have to scale back on the design in maximum acceleration. You don't want the missile (or long distance runner) to shoot its wad too quickly having to go ballistic too soon. But there is no navy to date that has had a reason to look at it from the other side, because of a ship that can launch from such a close range.

Necessity really is the mother of invention.

Honor of the Queen wrote:Principality was one of the new city-class destroyers. She was short on energy weapons . . . but she packed a missile broadside most light cruisers might envy.

Honor of the Queen wrote:“Skipper! Astern of us—!”
Lieutenant Commander Amberson’s shout wrenched Commander Alice Truman’s eyes back to her display, and her face whitened in horror.
“Hard a-port!” she barked, and Apollo swerved wildly in response.
It was too late. The destroyer behind her had timed it perfectly, and her first broadside exploded just behind the open rear of Apollo’s impeller wedge. X-ray lasers opened the light cruiser’s port side like huge talons, and damage alarms screamed like damned souls.
“Bring her around!” Truman shouted. “Bring her around, Helm!”
A second broadside was already roaring in, and a corner of her mind wondered why the Peep was using missiles at beam ranges, but she didn’t have time to think about that. Her cruiser clawed around, interposing her sidewall, and two of the incoming missiles ran physically into it and perished before their proximity fuses could trigger. Four more detonated just short of it, stabbing through the sidewall into already shattered plating, and a seventh streaked all the way past her and detonated on her starboard side. Smoke and screams and thunder filled Apollo’s bridge, and Truman’s face was bloodless as her starboard sidewall went down and the Havenite closed in for the kill.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And ditto for both the Mistletoe and Silver Bullet, which David tells us were developed independently from one another but were based on the same principles.

cthia wrote:But I still can not agree on this one issue ...

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which is why I balk at 10x improvements in missile accelerations. That's a revolutionary improvement, not incremental. It's something we ought to have expected from the people who have been doing bleeding-edge research on wedges and compensators (the Alliance), not from someone catching up. It's something that, if it existed, would change tactics and strategy considerably, not just missiles. And finally, it would come out of the blue.

It would only be a revolutionary improvement because the RMN did not need missiles that were short lived. In fact, the goal was to always develop longer ranged missiles to keep the range open and punch outside the enemy's range. It is more like revolutionary thinking.

Conventional warships would never get so close that it might need to shoot its wad quickly. It would be dead before it was allowed to close the range that much, because you can see them coming.

Like the prizefighter George Foreman, they tend to broadcast that haymaker that starts coming at you from as far away as Timbuktu. So that revolutionary improvement wouldn't have been an avenue the RMN would deem worth wasting its time on.

The LDs can get awfully close to an opponent. This area of research would appeal to them.

I think the difference between you and I is that you think the breakthrough is beyond the ability of conventional navies. I don't. It is simply outside their need and doctrine. After all, why develop a missile to be fired at knife fighting, energy weapons range.

Even the acceleration of GA missiles is talked about in this light. Paraphrasing "Sir, if their current acceleration holds up, yatta yatta yatta." Like a prize fighter, the missiles have to pace themselves. If maximum range is your objective, you are going to have to scale back on the design in maximum acceleration. You don't want the missile (or long distance runner) to shoot its wad too quickly having to go ballistic too soon. But there is no navy to date that has had a reason to look at it from the other side, because of a ship that can launch from such a close range.

Necessity really is the mother of invention.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well I'd quibble with "Conventional warships would never get so close that it might need to shoot its wad quickly."

They generally shouldn't but we've seen them get that close a few times in the books (aka fights at energy range), and Theisman's destroyer was even using laserheads at energy range in Honor of the Queen. I bet he'd have loved to have had some million gee short ranged missiles instead.

Honor of the Queen wrote:Principality was one of the new city-class destroyers. She was short on energy weapons . . . but she packed a missile broadside most light cruisers might envy.

Honor of the Queen wrote:“Skipper! Astern of us—!”
Lieutenant Commander Amberson’s shout wrenched Commander Alice Truman’s eyes back to her display, and her face whitened in horror.
“Hard a-port!” she barked, and Apollo swerved wildly in response.
It was too late. The destroyer behind her had timed it perfectly, and her first broadside exploded just behind the open rear of Apollo’s impeller wedge. X-ray lasers opened the light cruiser’s port side like huge talons, and damage alarms screamed like damned souls.
“Bring her around!” Truman shouted. “Bring her around, Helm!”
A second broadside was already roaring in, and a corner of her mind wondered why the Peep was using missiles at beam ranges, but she didn’t have time to think about that. Her cruiser clawed around, interposing her sidewall, and two of the incoming missiles ran physically into it and perished before their proximity fuses could trigger. Four more detonated just short of it, stabbing through the sidewall into already shattered plating, and a seventh streaked all the way past her and detonated on her starboard side. Smoke and screams and thunder filled Apollo’s bridge, and Truman’s face was bloodless as her starboard sidewall went down and the Havenite closed in for the kill.

However, you're still correct that missile combat at very short ranges is definitely rare enough an occurrence that most navies wouldn't find it worthwhile to develop missiles that further trade off endurance for even higher accelerations.

(Though Q-ships would probably love some. If you're getting pulled over for inspection & boarding by a hostile destroyer or cruiser it'd be really nice to be able to slam a broadside of ultra-high speed missiles into its face from just beyond energy range; say 1.2 million km. Take the warship down fast enough and it likely won't get its own, slower, missiles off; yet you're still too far away for its faster reacting energy mounts to hurt you)

kzt wrote:You want a breakthrough?

Liquid immersion with liquid breathing. According to an old NASA study that should get you to about 40G tolerance. I forget the multiple that David was using, but it's a LOT of delta V.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I disagree on their being "aliens from another Galaxy" for two reasons. One, they're clearly humans and working from the same cultural baggage, inserted into the same Galactic community. The Inner Onion might hold themselves at a distance, but the researchers are people who used to have lives on Mesa for the most part, watched TV and exchanged emails with off-planet people every now and again.

Joat42 wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I disagree on their being "aliens from another Galaxy" for two reasons. One, they're clearly humans and working from the same cultural baggage, inserted into the same Galactic community. The Inner Onion might hold themselves at a distance, but the researchers are people who used to have lives on Mesa for the most part, watched TV and exchanged emails with off-planet people every now and again.

Didn't rfc himself say that the Detweilers and the Inner Onion is just one big echo chamber. I don't mean that in the sense which cthia is referring to, but in the sense that it's the result of their very human failings. Their whole MO is just human megalomania writ large, not aliens doing inscrutable and alien things beyond our keen.

cthia wrote:Thanks for pointing out that one case. Now imagine if they had been purpose-built with a much higher acceleration. Q-ships could certainly use such a missile as you said. But, also as you implied, would wasting time on such a development of a limited use missile be worth it? And would the magazine space they would occupy be worth it? And could the RMN afford the time it would require to develop these rarely used weapons in the face of the aggressive arms race with the Havenites.

And, were Q-ships allowed to close to the range that a Spider could achieve before the enemy would suspect that something is awry. Isn't there some kind of common right of way sailing rule?

Jonathan_S wrote:So yeah, in the right situations it seems like suspicious freighters (any of which might have had concealed weaponry) have repeatedly been allowed much closer to single enemy warships than a spider ship could ever hope to sneak. (However the Spider can probably get closer to an entire task force or fleet than an unknown freighter can -- generally they're only allowed close to relatively light warships; and those screening units would be detached to inspect or drive off any unknown freighter trying to too closely approach a task force or fleet)

As for the short range crazy acceleration missiles. I don't see a normal warship making room for them in its magazines -- it's too niche a use case for them to justify giving up that many of their conventional missiles. But a dedicated Q-ship's disguise requires it to be far larger than any light warships -- even a small Q-ship is still at least 50% bigger than a Nike-class BC(L)! So they've lots of room to carry specialty munitions if they think that'll give them a significantly better chance to avoid capture or destruction by a suspicious warship. (Now Q-ships themselves are so niche that a navy probably wouldn't devote massive amounts of R&D into weapons that would only benefit them; but if they happened to have such weapons the Q-ship's got plenty of extra room to carry them)