Attacking Darius:

cthia wrote:Part of my reasons for suggesting some of the insane breakthroughs are based on a willingness of the MA to endanger their crew in the long run. And even risk dangerous incidents in the short run. Not unlike what the Russians historically, allegedly, did with their submarines. Namely the Kursk. And their nuclear power plants in general?

That's indeed quite possible. Taking insane risk with one's crews, especially if they don't know any better, is something I could see them doing. There's also the possibility that their people can be genetically engineered to be more resistant to acceleration effects or to radiation or whatever.

That's not my problem with the Alignment though. This is:

From the same thread, I am also aware of your thoughts about a missile with an insane flight profile compared to present GA technology. Surely your vehement objection can't be because the missile would require too much handwavium that would enable it to break the laws of physics. That ship, err missile, has already sailed.

I do have an objection to too much handwavium. That just removes the realism & believability in Sci-Fi. The more of it you have, the more it's fantasy, not Sci-Fi. The line is pretty thin as it is. An Analog article I read once said (paraphrased) that "a large, winged reptile that produces hydrogen in gastrointestinal processes and ignites it with a spark by snapping teeth together while exhaling" is Sci-Fi; "dragon" is fantasy. For us fans of David, another example is "a nanite infestation powered by electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum that keeps the subject healthy and allows practised users to command them to change their body shape, but which has a vulnerability to too much radiation input light sunlight" is Sci-Fi, but "vampire" is fantasy.

More specifically for the case of the MAlign, it's not that handwavium is impossible, it's that David is pretty good at not using too much of it. He's been very good at giving hints at technology coming before it does come, and we haven't seen any hint of these things. Part of the HV appeal is that it always builds on top of what's been said, without introducing sudden, unexpected technological revolutions. RFC is specifically aiming for this.

It's possible for the technology to be gradually introduced over the course of many books, but I don't think there are enough of them left for that to happen. I'd love to have another dozen HV-Honor-time books coming, but RFC seems to be winding that project down, not up. Maybe only after he's done with the storyline to where he wants it to be, then opens up for other authors.

And... we are back! To assuming the Spider has to decloak to use its weapons like the Klingon Bird of Prey?

No. That's why I said "do something it needs to" instead of "firing weapons." What that something is, is a matter for discussion.

Designing a ship that must break stealth in order to fire is a major failing. One only does that if there's a technological or physical limitation that cannot be overcome. The "Balance of Terror" original Star Trek episode that introduced the Romulans and the cloaking device had Spock speculating it was a power production issue: the BoP had a plasma cannon as its main weapon, so it could do one or the other, but not both. Like the Shrike and walls that we're discussing at the same time on this thread.

But a smart designer would have included some weapons that can be launched with no or minimal power requirements and would have designed the ship so it would have multiple angles to do that with so it had a chance to use those weapons even if they compromised stealth to an extent. I expect the MAN designers to have done exactly that: the LD should have torpedo launch tubes on all three of its broadsides, plus fore and after aspects, so it has five different launch angles for stealth weapons. THIS should be its mean tactic.

Firing grasers and breaking stealth shouldn't need to be.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:We can argue about why the "power requirements" statement was included. But the books seem very clear that fully closing either aspect cuts the ship's acceleration.
[snip text-ev]
So I'm reading that closing just the front aspect of the wedge cuts the wedge's acceleration to zero -- hence the Shrikes ceasing to acceleration and turning only under reaction thrusters. As I understand it if you want a bow wall and also to acceleration you need to use the newer buckler wall -- with it's far more limited coverage arc.

Are you sure it's "either aspect" that cuts acceleration, not both?

Yes, LACs cut acceleration down to zero when bringing their bow walls and making their firing passes... but what was the state of the stern wall at that same time? Like I said, memory tells me it was when both walls were up, so the sternwall would have already been up before the firing pass.

But memory can play tricks on you.

Well the LACs in question were original Shrikes. They didn't even have sternwalls. The Ferrets were the first LACs to get those; and then later an unauthorized field mod bodged the capability into some later Shrikes (like Bad Penny).

However, I finally remembered that SoS (where the buckler was introduced) had more explicit descriptions that EoH did (even though I'd always understood from EoH that closing either aspect killed acceleration)

Shadows of Saganami wrote:The single enormous tactical drawback to the new bow wall technology was that an impeller wedge had to be open at both ends to function. When the RMN had introduced the new system, it had accepted that ships with raised bow walls would be unable to accelerate and had been happy to do it, given the fact that, for the first time in history, an impeller-drive ship would be protected against the deadly "down the throat" rake which was every tactician's dream.
But BuShips had felt it could do better, and it had in the Saganami-Cs. Hexapuma's bow wall could be brought up in two stages. The second stage was the original wall that completely sealed the front of her wedge, protected against fire from any angle or weapon, and reduced her acceleration to zero. The first stage wasn't a complete wall, however. It was a much smaller, circular shield, its diameter less than twice the ship's extreme beam. It offered no protection against beams coming in from acute angles, and a laserhead could actually slip right past it before detonating. But against the energy weapons of a single target, Hexapuma could place that defense directly between her hull and the enemy . . . and continue to accelerate at full efficiency.

So yes, ships with just their (full) bow wall raised are unable to (use their wedge to) accelerate.

kzt wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote: It's easy enough, just ensure there is no point that gives them a clear shot at any more ships than necessary. Off the top of my head I think they can ensure no point can bear on more than three ships and note that they will have a nearly perfect picture of where the ship is if it takes that shot. Everyone else fires grasers into the area as they bear. The LD does a lot of damage but dies in the process.

So you'll have some ships accelerating in the x axis, some accelerating in the y-axis and some in the z-axis? Can you explain how that works for a squadron?

And I'll point out that this is not exactly what they have done. Sitting there with their wedges down is what they have actually done, because they know they will always have many minutes to bring them up.

Spread them apart a bit and a carefully-planned zig-zag. You won't get max accel but you'll still easily outrun a LD.

kzt wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote: It's easy enough, just ensure there is no point that gives them a clear shot at any more ships than necessary. Off the top of my head I think they can ensure no point can bear on more than three ships and note that they will have a nearly perfect picture of where the ship is if it takes that shot. Everyone else fires grasers into the area as they bear. The LD does a lot of damage but dies in the process.

So you'll have some ships accelerating in the x axis, some accelerating in the y-axis and some in the z-axis? Can you explain how that works for a squadron?

And I'll point out that this is not exactly what they have done. Sitting there with their wedges down is what they have actually done, because they know they will always have many minutes to bring them up.

Loren Pectel wrote:Spread them apart a bit and a carefully-planned zig-zag. You won't get max accel but you'll still easily outrun a LD.

You also won't get the benefit of mutual CM defense. That should make it a bit easier - certainly for a wolfpack - to attack and defeat in detail.

cthia wrote:

Loren Pectel wrote:Spread them apart a bit and a carefully-planned zig-zag. You won't get max accel but you'll still easily outrun a LD.

You also won't get the benefit of mutual CM defense. That should make it a bit easier - certainly for a wolfpack - to attack and defeat in detail.

I think they can be within mutual CM range, it just gives up more of the acceleration on zigzagging.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Part of my reasons for suggesting some of the insane breakthroughs are based on a willingness of the MA to endanger their crew in the long run. And even risk dangerous incidents in the short run. Not unlike what the Russians historically, allegedly, did with their submarines. Namely the Kursk. And their nuclear power plants in general?

That's indeed quite possible. Taking insane risk with one's crews, especially if they don't know any better, is something I could see them doing. There's also the possibility that their people can be genetically engineered to be more resistant to acceleration effects or to radiation or whatever.

That's not my problem with the Alignment though. This is:

From the same thread, I am also aware of your thoughts about a missile with an insane flight profile compared to present GA technology. Surely your vehement objection can't be because the missile would require too much handwavium that would enable it to break the laws of physics. That ship, err missile, has already sailed.

I do have an objection to too much handwavium. That just removes the realism & believability in Sci-Fi. The more of it you have, the more it's fantasy, not Sci-Fi. The line is pretty thin as it is. An Analog article I read once said (paraphrased) that "a large, winged reptile that produces hydrogen in gastrointestinal processes and ignites it with a spark by snapping teeth together while exhaling" is Sci-Fi; "dragon" is fantasy. For us fans of David, another example is "a nanite infestation powered by electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum that keeps the subject healthy and allows practised users to command them to change their body shape, but which has a vulnerability to too much radiation input light sunlight" is Sci-Fi, but "vampire" is fantasy.

More specifically for the case of the MAlign, it's not that handwavium is impossible, it's that David is pretty good at not using too much of it. He's been very good at giving hints at technology coming before it does come, and we haven't seen any hint of these things. Part of the HV appeal is that it always builds on top of what's been said, without introducing sudden, unexpected technological revolutions. RFC is specifically aiming for this.

It's possible for the technology to be gradually introduced over the course of many books, but I don't think there are enough of them left for that to happen. I'd love to have another dozen HV-Honor-time books coming, but RFC seems to be winding that project down, not up. Maybe only after he's done with the storyline to where he wants it to be, then opens up for other authors.

In addition to Too Much Handwavium, for me I also have an issue with consistency. Scientists making a ship or missile 10% faster year on year - yes, I can buy that, but if suddenly (with no explanation) a stagnant tech is suddenly usurped and the ship now goes 10x as fast, or a missile shrinks from something the size of a cargo container, to the size of a large Salami ( for example) It disturbs me - or if one day someone is 6'5", then the next he is 5'3" (or whatever is arbitrarily needed for the plot to move along) - it loses me.

Stories need a consistent set of rules (like real life), with plausible plots and storylines (inside those rules) or else what is the point?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Part of my reasons for suggesting some of the insane breakthroughs are based on a willingness of the MA to endanger their crew in the long run. And even risk dangerous incidents in the short run. Not unlike what the Russians historically, allegedly, did with their submarines. Namely the Kursk. And their nuclear power plants in general?

That's indeed quite possible. Taking insane risk with one's crews, especially if they don't know any better, is something I could see them doing. There's also the possibility that their people can be genetically engineered to be more resistant to acceleration effects or to radiation or whatever.

That's not my problem with the Alignment though. This is:

From the same thread, I am also aware of your thoughts about a missile with an insane flight profile compared to present GA technology. Surely your vehement objection can't be because the missile would require too much handwavium that would enable it to break the laws of physics. That ship, err missile, has already sailed.

I do have an objection to too much handwavium. That just removes the realism & believability in Sci-Fi. The more of it you have, the more it's fantasy, not Sci-Fi. The line is pretty thin as it is. An Analog article I read once said (paraphrased) that "a large, winged reptile that produces hydrogen in gastrointestinal processes and ignites it with a spark by snapping teeth together while exhaling" is Sci-Fi; "dragon" is fantasy. For us fans of David, another example is "a nanite infestation powered by electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum that keeps the subject healthy and allows practised users to command them to change their body shape, but which has a vulnerability to too much radiation input light sunlight" is Sci-Fi, but "vampire" is fantasy.

More specifically for the case of the MAlign, it's not that handwavium is impossible, it's that David is pretty good at not using too much of it. He's been very good at giving hints at technology coming before it does come, and we haven't seen any hint of these things. Part of the HV appeal is that it always builds on top of what's been said, without introducing sudden, unexpected technological revolutions. RFC is specifically aiming for this.

It's possible for the technology to be gradually introduced over the course of many books, but I don't think there are enough of them left for that to happen. I'd love to have another dozen HV-Honor-time books coming, but RFC seems to be winding that project down, not up. Maybe only after he's done with the storyline to where he wants it to be, then opens up for other authors.

Theemile wrote:In addition to Too Much Handwavium, for me I also have an issue with consistency. Scientists making a ship or missile 10% faster year on year - yes, I can buy that, but if suddenly (with no explanation) a stagnant tech is suddenly usurped and the ship now goes 10x as fast, or a missile shrinks from something the size of a cargo container, to the size of a large Salami ( for example) It disturbs me - or if one day someone is 6'5", then the next he is 5'3" (or whatever is arbitrarily needed for the plot to move along) - it loses me.

Stories need a consistent set of rules (like real life), with plausible plots and storylines (inside those rules) or else what is the point?

Well, essentially I agree with you both, well, with the exception of "David not using too much handwavium." I can't agree with that when trampling all over relativity.

But what I was trying to convey that both of you missed, is that it wouldn't break the hard rule of suddenly developing these breakthroughs, because the MA are "aliens from another Galaxy," so to speak. Their streak drive and spider drive proves it. So, the Haven sector's tech wouldn't suddenly skip unforeseen iterations.

These developments would have been going on completely separately from that sector and its paradigms. And they were being developed behind the scenes and planned to be a part of a centuries long conspiracy with the research also carried on for centuries. Centuries in development can hardly be considered suddenly. The Haven sector would have been completely oblivious to each new development and iteration, until the wine was ready to be served. The MA were simply able to keep their developments under wraps until needed because they were not in a war. As the RMN wished they could have saved the unveiling of some of their tech.

So, I agree that it would appear to be suddenly to the Haven sector, but centuries in development does not an argument for sudden make. It is totally unfair to the MA and storyline. Even if the MA had to reverse engineer some Haven sector tech.

The forum keeps judging MA tech by the restraints, problems, imitations and doctrines of the Haven system's tech. That could be very fatal.

It is likewise with the discussion about the RMN not wanting to use CM pods. You can not attribute that thinking to a completely different enemy. Or expect the author to.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Part of my reasons for suggesting some of the insane breakthroughs are based on a willingness of the MA to endanger their crew in the long run. And even risk dangerous incidents in the short run. Not unlike what the Russians historically, allegedly, did with their submarines. Namely the Kursk. And their nuclear power plants in general?

That's indeed quite possible. Taking insane risk with one's crews, especially if they don't know any better, is something I could see them doing. There's also the possibility that their people can be genetically engineered to be more resistant to acceleration effects or to radiation or whatever.

That's not my problem with the Alignment though. This is:

From the same thread, I am also aware of your thoughts about a missile with an insane flight profile compared to present GA technology. Surely your vehement objection can't be because the missile would require too much handwavium that would enable it to break the laws of physics. That ship, err missile, has already sailed.

I do have an objection to too much handwavium. That just removes the realism & believability in Sci-Fi. The more of it you have, the more it's fantasy, not Sci-Fi. The line is pretty thin as it is. An Analog article I read once said (paraphrased) that "a large, winged reptile that produces hydrogen in gastrointestinal processes and ignites it with a spark by snapping teeth together while exhaling" is Sci-Fi; "dragon" is fantasy. For us fans of David, another example is "a nanite infestation powered by electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum that keeps the subject healthy and allows practised users to command them to change their body shape, but which has a vulnerability to too much radiation input light sunlight" is Sci-Fi, but "vampire" is fantasy.

More specifically for the case of the MAlign, it's not that handwavium is impossible, it's that David is pretty good at not using too much of it. He's been very good at giving hints at technology coming before it does come, and we haven't seen any hint of these things. Part of the HV appeal is that it always builds on top of what's been said, without introducing sudden, unexpected technological revolutions. RFC is specifically aiming for this.

It's possible for the technology to be gradually introduced over the course of many books, but I don't think there are enough of them left for that to happen. I'd love to have another dozen HV-Honor-time books coming, but RFC seems to be winding that project down, not up. Maybe only after he's done with the storyline to where he wants it to be, then opens up for other authors.

And... we are back! To assuming the Spider has to decloak to use its weapons like the Klingon Bird of Prey?

No. That's why I said "do something it needs to" instead of "firing weapons." What that something is, is a matter for discussion.

Designing a ship that must break stealth in order to fire is a major failing. One only does that if there's a technological or physical limitation that cannot be overcome. The "Balance of Terror" original Star Trek episode that introduced the Romulans and the cloaking device had Spock speculating it was a power production issue: the BoP had a plasma cannon as its main weapon, so it could do one or the other, but not both. Like the Shrike and walls that we're discussing at the same time on this thread.

But a smart designer would have included some weapons that can be launched with no or minimal power requirements and would have designed the ship so it would have multiple angles to do that with so it had a chance to use those weapons even if they compromised stealth to an extent. I expect the MAN designers to have done exactly that: the LD should have torpedo launch tubes on all three of its broadsides, plus fore and after aspects, so it has five different launch angles for stealth weapons. THIS should be its mean tactic.

Firing grasers and breaking stealth shouldn't need to be.

I agree about possibly having genetically created crew to withstand conditions way out of the ordinary. Besides, why not apply their tech to their own cause. It is its own proof of concept to the Galaxy.

I do agree about not using too much handwavium. And I think David does a fine job overall. But for some people, like my sister, that yardstick has already been broken.

At any rate, I still think there should be room for improvement to a missile's acceleration. The acceleration of a GA's missile has to hold up much longer. An MA missile could be designed that shoots its wad as quickly as physically possible without consideration for extended ranges. It doesn't have to be a million gravity missile.

cthia wrote:Well, essentially I agree with you both, well, with the exception of "David not using too much handwavium." I can't agree with that when trampling all over relativity.

But what I was trying to convey that both of you missed, is that it wouldn't break the hard rule of suddenly developing these breakthroughs, because the MA are "aliens from another Galaxy," so to speak. Their streak drive and spider drive proves it. So, the Haven sector's tech wouldn't suddenly skip unforeseen iterations.

These developments would have been going on completely separately from that sector and its paradigms. And they were being developed behind the scenes and planned to be a part of a centuries long conspiracy with the research also carried on for centuries. Centuries in development can hardly be considered suddenly. The Haven sector would have been completely oblivious to each new development and iteration, until the wine was ready to be served. The MA were simply able to keep their developments under wraps until needed because they were not in a war. As the RMN wished they could have saved the unveiling of some of their tech.

So, I agree that it would appear to be suddenly to the Haven sector, but centuries in development does not an argument for sudden make. It is totally unfair to the MA and storyline. Even if the MA had to reverse engineer some Haven sector tech.

The forum keeps judging MA tech by the restraints, problems, imitations and doctrines of the Haven system's tech. That could be very fatal.

It is likewise with the discussion about the RMN not wanting to use CM pods. You can not attribute that thinking to a completely different enemy. Or expect the author to.

David's picking and choosing of Relativistic matters makes sense... in a way.

The original parameters David set when writing the stories meant Relativity never came into play. Setting the ceiling of ship's max speed due to particle screens (.6c and .8c for warships) as well as missile's acceleration and burn out times, all but guaranteed that ships never reach anything near light speed and tau issues. Ships lost velocity when they translated from one band to another and people got sick when ships translated too fast - meaning that ships usually translated at low velocities and had to build speed back up, not continuing to accumulate it. Even the location of the hyperlimit was set at such a distance ensuring that no ship would normally reach speeds higher than .3c before decelerating for the 2nd 1/2 of their journey to their destination in a solar system - which also means ships also usually pass each other with a closing velocity of less than .6c.

However, as the story evolved, ships accels rose by 50%. Missiles run times tripled, and suddenly the carefully created rules crafted into the bedrock of the "universe" which kept relativity from being an issue were broken. And to keep things consistent, he ignored the issue. Only us Nerds pulled out our slide rules and complained.

Essentially, David did the same thing a modern municipality does. We all know every car being sold today will go 100 MPH or more - virtually every sports car 150MPH. What do you do so people in corvettes don't barrel down suburban side streets at 95 miles an hour? You put up traffic signs and speed bumps. You time lights to slow traffic flow. You penalize people who are caught breaking the rules. And for the most part, you don't have to worry about that guy buying the Corvette running over your daughter, because the rules and guards you have put in place passively makes the situation safe most of the time.

cthia wrote:Well, essentially I agree with you both, well, with the exception of "David not using too much handwavium." I can't agree with that when trampling all over relativity.

Well, how much handwavium is too much is a subjective topic. I can't tell you what your limit should be, that's only up to you. Conversely, that will also set the limit of how much an author must stick to their own rules in their universes.

For me, I like when the handwavium is kept to a minimum after the first third of the first book. Once we're introduced to the rules, stick to them. I don't have a problem with technological progress or even serendipitous breakthroughs, but they have to still follow the rules set forth in that first third. And I dislike when the author cheats by having the technology given for free by the regular trope of wise, ancient race (especially those that are pacifists and require humans to do the fighting).

[By the way, David Brin wrote "The Ancient Ones" where he explored the topic of what would happen if the "wise, ancient race" were humans. I think it's a topic not well explored in Sci-Fi and has a nice ring to it]

David is really good at keeping to his own rules, in all the universes of his that I've read. Some of them have more handwavium than others, but it's usually a set up to the story and then goes away (like time travel in "Apocalypse Troll"), or the rules are set so that there's a lot of leeway in the first place ("Out of the Dark"). In the Honorverse in particular, he's been very tight with what's allowed.

That's all to say I doubt that he'll be introducing even more unexpected and un-foreshadowed technological breakthroughs than he already has. Having the MAlign genetically engineer their crews to sustain higher accelerations and heavier doses of radiation? Sure, that's completely believable because that's a natural extension of what has already been established. Some other offshoot technology related to tractor/pressor beams? I can accept that, because it's an area the MAlign has extensive research on and is far ahead of anyone else. Incremental improvements on wedges I could take too, because we've established that it's possible all along.

Another aspect that David is VERY good at (possibly the best at) is figuring out the other consequences this technology would have, militarily as well as not.

Which is why I balk at 10x improvements in missile accelerations. That's a revolutionary improvement, not incremental. It's something we ought to have expected from the people who have been doing bleeding-edge research on wedges and compensators (the Alliance), not from someone catching up. It's something that, if it existed, would change tactics and strategy considerably, not just missiles. And finally, it would come out of the blue.

Now, it's not impossible. He's established in the HV that the one catching up could go down paths no one else had thought of because "that's just the way things are done" (q.v. Grayson-inspired compensators, but also the streak drive). And the clues could be there already, but not noticed by us even though we're using the fine tooth comb, because if there's another thing David is good at is burying the hints -- and that's when he doesn't completely misdirect us in the first place. Evidence 1: Thomas Theisman. Or in the other thread: is Jessica Milliken a red herring?

But what I was trying to convey that both of you missed, is that it wouldn't break the hard rule of suddenly developing these breakthroughs, because the MA are "aliens from another Galaxy," so to speak. Their streak drive and spider drive proves it. So, the Haven sector's tech wouldn't suddenly skip unforeseen iterations.

I disagree on their being "aliens from another Galaxy" for two reasons. One, they're clearly humans and working from the same cultural baggage, inserted into the same Galactic community. The Inner Onion might hold themselves at a distance, but the researchers are people who used to have lives on Mesa for the most part, watched TV and exchanged emails with off-planet people every now and again. They don't have a radically different way of thinking. And two, because the "technology falls on our laps from wise, ancient ones" is not something David appears to use at all.

But I agree that there could be breakthroughs to be had. I just find it unlikely that this will be the case, given all I said above.

These developments would have been going on completely separately from that sector and its paradigms. And they were being developed behind the scenes and planned to be a part of a centuries long conspiracy with the research also carried on for centuries. Centuries in development can hardly be considered suddenly. The Haven sector would have been completely oblivious to each new development and iteration, until the wine was ready to be served. The MA were simply able to keep their developments under wraps until needed because they were not in a war. As the RMN wished they could have saved the unveiling of some of their tech.

No, it couldn't be and isn't "completely separately from that sector" because the Alignment is not completely separate. They are spying on the Haven sector for one thing. So they contaminate themselves with the ideas coming out of there. Plus, I don't think the Darius Onion are military experts in the first place (Galton was), so they'd rely heavily on outside experts. One or two geniuses like Gail might be aren't sufficient to do everything in complete isolation.

So, I agree that it would appear to be suddenly to the Haven sector, but centuries in development does not an argument for sudden make. It is totally unfair to the MA and storyline. Even if the MA had to reverse engineer some Haven sector tech.

"Centuries in development" runs afoul of David's proclivity to give us hints that it's coming and we've seen none. As I disclaimed above, it might already be there and we missed it, but I don't think so.

I need to add another disclaimer though: it's clear that the LDs as we currently understand them are poor space-supremacy vessels. There MUST be more about the tactics they will use and that usually means technology we're not aware of. But I expect that to be more of the incremental kind, not the revolutionary one.

It is likewise with the discussion about the RMN not wanting to use CM pods. You can not attribute that thinking to a completely different enemy. Or expect the author to.

We're now exploring it, while David already has his conclusions. We may find out in the next book that the GF did adopt them, or we may find out that they found it a nice idea but didn't need to because they had something better or no need for it.

This is actually a good example of believable innovation. Pods did exist, CMs did exist. The Galton military simply combined two existing technologies in a way no one had previously done. The use of missile pods themselves were a Black Swan Event: before it, it hadn't occurred to almost anyone; after it, it's obvious. The same goes for the Hasta: combine a stealth recon drone with a missile launcher. And ditto for both the Mistletoe and Silver Bullet, which David tells us were developed independently from one another but were based on the same principles.