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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Theemile   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:36 am

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Reactors

Frigates, Destroyers, Light Cruisers and older Heavy cruisers only have 2 Reactors - for the smaller ships, the 2nd is really redundancy.

Starting with the Star Knight, larger, modern CAs have 3 reactors, as do BCs. BBs usually have 4 and DN and SDs have 4-6, depending on the amount of redundancy and the tech level of the fusion reactors.

If you want, I can PM screenshots of the Jayne's pages with the details.

Wedges use more energy to operate than a ship can generate- To start the wedge, the ship needs to use it's ring capacitors in addition to it's reactors - Once started, Wedges pull the majority of energy required to maintain itself from Hyper, requiring a "relative" small amount of energy from the ship. In a Grav Wave, the sails generate enough power to turn the reactors down to maintenance levels and use virtually no reaction mass.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:50 am

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cthia wrote:At any rate, these design considerations might just fortuitously turn out to be favorable to the LD, because of its unusual shape. Running sidewalls the length of the elongated shapes of conventional warships might be more challenging than the shape of the LD. Perhaps.

Also, if you cannot effectively localize the warship that you are attacking, can your missiles concentrate on one area? Can an LD get away with weaker sidewalls in certain "areas" of the ship.

Like Star Trek, "increase power to the forward shields."

All in all, I believe the LDs will challenge a lot of what we think we know about conventional ship design. Obviously. And some of that design may turn out to be exclusively available only to that shape. The collective of the forum seems much too quick to attribute the shape of the LD as a liability. Which might hold true, while peering through the cloudy lenses of conventional GA tech.

I am fairly certain (but not absolutely positive) that to produce any sort of sidewall (including a spherical one) requires Beta nodes and all the interior equipment that it would take to also produce a wedge. Couple that with the Alpha nodes needed to create sails, it seems to me that any spider drive ship which can also produce sails for hyperspace travel and sidewalls for defense is effectively a hybrid ship capable of both a spider drive and a wedge drive. Does that seem correct?

One thing I think is certain, is that sidewalls register on the same detectors that search for wedges, except for being weaker. However, is it possible that the wedges connects to the alpha wall and a sidewall does not (in normal use it only connects to the wedge)? I assume the reason RFC talked about the need for much more armor on a spider drive ship, was that those particular ships did not have sidewalls (without denying that a hybrid drive ship could be created).
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Theemile   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:58 am

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cthia wrote: <snip>

This! It certainly emphasizes the MA's need to break the secret of the small power plant. And since they haven't yet - and if some of them are completed - it makes you wonder if refitting an LD with smaller reactors will be as difficult as refitting an SD.


Manticore has had a number of fusion developments: for ship borne fusion, their modern reactors are slightly more powerful for their size, but not radically. In Car terms, they've shifted from using a Chevy 350 Small Block V8 to a 307/308 V8 without losing power levels.

The Micro reactors are a very small grav pinched fusion reactors stripped of most of it's shielding - it's sized missiles and drones - ~100-1000 tons. And they not manned rated due to the lack of shielding.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:36 pm

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Theemile wrote:The Micro reactors are a very small grav pinched fusion reactors stripped of most of it's shielding - it's sized missiles and drones - ~100-1000 tons. And they not manned rated due to the lack of shielding.

The MA mentioned that they expected to have that technology figured out in a year.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:11 pm

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kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:The Micro reactors are a very small grav pinched fusion reactors stripped of most of it's shielding - it's sized missiles and drones - ~100-1000 tons. And they not manned rated due to the lack of shielding.

The MA mentioned that they expected to have that technology figured out in a year.

And we should expect them to succeed because they stated how close they were to solving FTL in one of the previous books, and voila, we saw the fruits of their labor at Galton.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:24 pm

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Theemile wrote:Reactors

Frigates, Destroyers, Light Cruisers and older Heavy cruisers only have 2 Reactors - for the smaller ships, the 2nd is really redundancy.

Starting with the Star Knight, larger, modern CAs have 3 reactors, as do BCs. BBs usually have 4 and DN and SDs have 4-6, depending on the amount of redundancy and the tech level of the fusion reactors.

If you want, I can PM screenshots of the Jayne's pages with the details.

Wedges use more energy to operate than a ship can generate- To start the wedge, the ship needs to use it's ring capacitors in addition to it's reactors - Once started, Wedges pull the majority of energy required to maintain itself from Hyper, requiring a "relative" small amount of energy from the ship. In a Grav Wave, the sails generate enough power to turn the reactors down to maintenance levels and use virtually no reaction mass.

Thanks for the post and info. Silly me, now I remember being informed of the number of reactors in the thread discussing capacitors. I don't know why I didn't recall it, or why my brain is fixated on just three for SDs. Probably because we speculated on how many were critical and how many were redundant, and my brain latched on to the split. Shrug.

I have to admit. That fact seems critical to the LD. It seems they must break the secret.

Hmm, the Manty reactors allow for a much smaller footprint without losing output. What if the MA decides to build a bigger version of the same reactor, producing even more power.

I have another concern. Why do we assume that anything carried outside the LD will be visible? Like towed pods/toys? Or open bay doors.

BTW, Theemile, thanks for the offer to give me a look into Jayne's closet. But I really need to buy her myself. I have plans to pick her up along with the current book. Thanks again.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:31 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:At any rate, these design considerations might just fortuitously turn out to be favorable to the LD, because of its unusual shape. Running sidewalls the length of the elongated shapes of conventional warships might be more challenging than the shape of the LD. Perhaps.

Also, if you cannot effectively localize the warship that you are attacking, can your missiles concentrate on one area? Can an LD get away with weaker sidewalls in certain "areas" of the ship.

Like Star Trek, "increase power to the forward shields."

All in all, I believe the LDs will challenge a lot of what we think we know about conventional ship design. Obviously. And some of that design may turn out to be exclusively available only to that shape. The collective of the forum seems much too quick to attribute the shape of the LD as a liability. Which might hold true, while peering through the cloudy lenses of conventional GA tech.

I am fairly certain (but not absolutely positive) that to produce any sort of sidewall (including a spherical one) requires Beta nodes and all the interior equipment that it would take to also produce a wedge. Couple that with the Alpha nodes needed to create sails, it seems to me that any spider drive ship which can also produce sails for hyperspace travel and sidewalls for defense is effectively a hybrid ship capable of both a spider drive and a wedge drive. Does that seem correct?

One thing I think is certain, is that sidewalls register on the same detectors that search for wedges, except for being weaker. However, is it possible that the wedges connects to the alpha wall and a sidewall does not (in normal use it only connects to the wedge)? I assume the reason RFC talked about the need for much more armor on a spider drive ship, was that those particular ships did not have sidewalls (without denying that a hybrid drive ship could be created).

Does that go for bubblewalls as well?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:16 pm

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cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:The Micro reactors are a very small grav pinched fusion reactors stripped of most of it's shielding - it's sized missiles and drones - ~100-1000 tons. And they not manned rated due to the lack of shielding.
kzt wrote:The MA mentioned that they expected to have that technology figured out in a year.

And we should expect them to succeed because they stated how close they were to solving FTL in one of the previous books, and voila, we saw the fruits of their labor at Galton.

Success in hitting the timeline in one case of reverse engineering doesn't guarentee success in another. But yeah, lets assume that their predicted timeline is reasonably accurate.

Cracking the micro-fusion tech will improve the endurance of their graser torps (assuming they can keep the heat and emissions of the minimally shielded fusion reactor stealthily contained without a wedge to dump the waste heat out through). It may also let them redesign Cataphracts with more power for ECM, jamming, etc. (though that might require a physically larger 2nd stage to hold it. Since the Cataphract actually drops its first stage, unlike a true MDM where drive rings burn out but the entire missile body makes the entire trip, you'd need any full-trip power source to exist in the 2nd stage so you've still got it when you approach the enemy)


But your earlier post seemed to be saying that cracking microfusion power plant tech would somehow lead to refitting the Lenny Dets with them; thus somehow increasing their power production. That part doesn't make sense. Even if you ignore the radiation issues from their minimal shielding, microfusion power plants are less efficient than full scale ones, and have lower power density. If you piled up enough of them to fill the same volume as a full up ship reactor their collective power output would be well below that large reactor; and their fuel usage would be significantly higher. There's just zero reason to install them on a warship instead of, or in addition to, its normal fusion reactors -- no matter how little you might care about the ship's crew.

(Their only advantage is in things like RDs and multi-drive missiles that are otherwise too small to mount any other type of fusion reactor -- since they do scale better than storing power in capacitors)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:54 pm

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tlb wrote:I am fairly certain (but not absolutely positive) that to produce any sort of sidewall (including a spherical one) requires Beta nodes and all the interior equipment that it would take to also produce a wedge. Couple that with the Alpha nodes needed to create sails, it seems to me that any spider drive ship which can also produce sails for hyperspace travel and sidewalls for defense is effectively a hybrid ship capable of both a spider drive and a wedge drive. Does that seem correct?

One thing I think is certain, is that sidewalls register on the same detectors that search for wedges, except for being weaker. However, is it possible that the wedges connects to the alpha wall and a sidewall does not (in normal use it only connects to the wedge)? I assume the reason RFC talked about the need for much more armor on a spider drive ship, was that those particular ships did not have sidewalls (without denying that a hybrid drive ship could be created).

cthia wrote:Does that go for bubblewalls as well?

So far as I know, a bubblewall is another name for a spherical sidewall.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:42 pm

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cthia wrote:Textev always states that energy battles are never expected to be prolonged. Therefore, energy fire is likewise not expected to be prolonged. Against an enemy whose stealth is total, prolonged energy fire might be a must.


I don't think the conclusion follows from the premise. A stealth ship wants any source of fire, be it missile or energy, to originate as far away from it as possible. Firing its own energy mounts is the second worst thing it could do, only after bringing up a gravitic footprint like a wedge or a bubblewall. So a stealth ship does not want to fire energy mounts, much less a prolonged battle of one.

However, as a last-ditch survival attempt, it may need that many mounts. It may need to overwhelm any enemy that comes close enough to sniff it before its own weaknesses allow this enemy to take it down. So LD design may include a lot of energy mounts. But they may be for a short (and victorious) energy battle.

Certainly if some of the tactical recommendations encountered in the forum are employed. Like firing in the dark hoping for potluck. I would certainly expect that extended energy battles would not be possible with one reactor down.


If you lose your redundant reactor, then your remaining ones will power your ship to 100% of battle power requirements. If you lose two reactors, then you're going to have to start making trade-off choices. for an SD mounting 5 reactors, losing 2 means you're operating at 75% power budget.

But we're talking about power, not total energy. It will just take longer to charge the same number of graser and laser capacitors. That means the number of shots fired per unit of time goes down, either by firing the same number of weapon mounts at a reduced frequency, or by firing fewer of them at max fire rate.

But anyway, the reason why textev said that energy battles were short were that usually the two opponents passed one another at a significant fraction of c in opposing directions. That is, the battles were short because the ships would enter and leave energy weapon range that quickly. That wouldn't be the case in a chase fight, where one side has a higher acceleration and longer range than the other, of course.

At any rate, these design considerations might just fortuitously turn out to be favorable to the LD, because of its unusual shape. Running sidewalls the length of the elongated shapes of conventional warships might be more challenging than the shape of the LD. Perhaps.


Indeed, no answering this one until RFC tells us.

Also, if you cannot effectively localize the warship that you are attacking, can your missiles concentrate on one area? Can an LD get away with weaker sidewalls in certain "areas" of the ship.


GA missiles can fire very accurately, but it's all limited by the target ship's evasive manoeuvres. The shot is taken from 20 to 30 thousand km away, so the sensors are already lagged by nearly 100 ms. They're looking through the sidewalls, which we know were opaque as of 1546 PD, so they can't be completely transparent today. That's why it takes dozens to hundreds of missiles firing at the same time to kill a ship: each one has a less-than-1 chance of hitting anything vital (even assuming they all fired), so you need more than a few to average out sufficient number of shots landing.

Against an LD? That's an unknown. On one hand, it has very low acceleration and a very high mass, so it evades like a turtle. It has no wedge, so all angles of attack are open, so potentially more missiles can acquire a firing solution. On the other hand, those two aspects also work in its favour: in a bigger ship, each equivalent shot is less lethal, so more shots are required. And because it has no wedge, homing in on the ship before final acquisition may not be easy.

The last point is likely a problem for almost every missile, since they are pretty dumb and blind and could confuse a ship for a planet. Except for Apollo broods, because those are receiving targetting instructions from ships that presumably are less dumb and blind.

BTW, I always thought of the wedge like a car engine, it only needs an enormous amount of energy to start. Then it runs totally on its own perpetual energy; its "alternator" as it were.


Good analogy. Not perpetual energy, but simply a different energy source which isn't available until the starter starts the engine.
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