Attacking Darius:

Jonathan_S wrote:So ground-based missiles might have powerful enough mass driver launch tubes to kick them up to pretty significant altitude prior to activating their wedges.
Lighting off a 10+ km wide wedge at, say, 100,000 or 200,000 feet has to be less disruptive to the atmosphere and destructive to the environment than doing so at 17,000 feet (which itself is about as low as you could activate one without the trailing edge momentarily impacting the ground as it formed )

Sprint missile, 1960s tech, hit 3.5 km/sec in 5 seconds.

cthia wrote:That is shocking. Makes you wonder about the size of those ground to orbital wedges. One stage would be used to reach escape velocity?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Escape velocity is quite low compared to wedge capabilities. On Earth, it's just 11.2 km/s, so a missile pulling only 10000 gravities would reach that in 0.112 seconds. That is, it would have escaped the gravity of Earth faster than you can double-click your mouse. It would cross the Kármán Line (100 km) in 1.42 seconds, at which point the atmosphere is too thin to provide significant resistance. It would be in low orbit (600 km) in less than 3.5 and could reach geostationary (36000 km) in 27 seconds.

Even at one tenth that acceleration (1000 gravities), it could reach GEO in less than 90 seconds. But 1000 gravities is probably too low for a military weapon, since recon drones can easily pull 3500.

The SAM that was used to kill the minister in Haven accelerated at over 2000 gravities (see text below); which you called slow, but it probably fast enough for anything moving in the atmosphere. The SAM that hit Honor's shuttle was going over 10 km/s. However don't we think that there is a range of missiles somewhere between the SAM missiles shown in the early books and the full ship to ship missiles, that could be used from a palace installation? For that matter, someone could build something like a Cataphract; only with the first stage being a large SAM type drive to get the next stage out of the atmosphere and then the anti-ship stage.

The Short Victorious War, chapter 25:

The launching charge lit the tower roof like lightning as it spat the Viper missile from the tube. Its tiny impeller drive kicked in almost instantly, accelerating it at over two thousand gravities even as its sensors picked up the glare of reflected laser light from the air car below and in front of it, and its nose dipped.

Flag in Exile, chapter 27:

That was when the SAM executed its terminal attack run.

The small, high-tech kamikaze had lost its target when Troubridge dove for the deck, but its seekers had reacquired lock, and it came slashing in at over ten kilometers per second. Even so, the pilot had almost denied it a hit, and its impeller wedge's leading edge caught the pinnace's rearing nose one bare meter aft of the radome.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:That is shocking. Makes you wonder about the size of those ground to orbital wedges. One stage would be used to reach escape velocity?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Escape velocity is quite low compared to wedge capabilities. On Earth, it's just 11.2 km/s, so a missile pulling only 10000 gravities would reach that in 0.112 seconds. That is, it would have escaped the gravity of Earth faster than you can double-click your mouse. It would cross the Kármán Line (100 km) in 1.42 seconds, at which point the atmosphere is too thin to provide significant resistance. It would be in low orbit (600 km) in less than 3.5 and could reach geostationary (36000 km) in 27 seconds.

Even at one tenth that acceleration (1000 gravities), it could reach GEO in less than 90 seconds. But 1000 gravities is probably too low for a military weapon, since recon drones can easily pull 3500.

The SAM that was used to kill the minister in Haven accelerated at over 2000 gravities (see text below); which you called slow, but it probably fast enough for anything moving in the atmosphere. The SAM that hit Honor's shuttle was going over 10 km/s. However don't we think that there is a range of missiles somewhere between the SAM missiles shown in the early books and the full ship to ship missiles, that could be used from a palace installation? For that matter, someone could build something like a Cataphract; only with the first stage being a large SAM type drive to get the next stage out of the atmosphere and then the anti-ship stage.

The Short Victorious War, chapter 25:

The launching charge lit the tower roof like lightning as it spat the Viper missile from the tube. Its tiny impeller drive kicked in almost instantly, accelerating it at over two thousand gravities even as its sensors picked up the glare of reflected laser light from the air car below and in front of it, and its nose dipped.

Flag in Exile, chapter 27:

That was when the SAM executed its terminal attack run.

The small, high-tech kamikaze had lost its target when Troubridge dove for the deck, but its seekers had reacquired lock, and it came slashing in at over ten kilometers per second. Even so, the pilot had almost denied it a hit, and its impeller wedge's leading edge caught the pinnace's rearing nose one bare meter aft of the radome.

I doubt Palace defenses that are dedicated to orbital intercepts are much different than ship to ship missiles, or what's the point?

I can see smaller less capable versions for atmospheric intercepts, yes. It still makes me shudder. Honor's pilot was extremely capable and he almost forced a miss. If any other belligerents are as good, or even if the missile simply misses and loses lock, what happens to an unfortunate neighborhood? I don't think I would feel any better living around a military target that occasionally launches missiles to swat vermin flying above me. Just saying.

cthia wrote:I doubt Palace defenses that are dedicated to orbital intercepts are much different than ship to ship missiles, or what's the point?

I can see smaller less capable versions for atmospheric intercepts, yes. It still makes me shudder. Honor's pilot was extremely capable and he almost forced a miss. If any other belligerents are as good, or even if the missile simply misses and loses lock, what happens to an unfortunate neighborhood? I don't think I would feel any better living around a military target that occasionally launches missiles to swat vermin flying above me. Just saying.

The point is that you normally would not be shooting at ships in the orbitals, since an enemy that controls the orbitals is allowed to do all sorts of things. The palace defenses are mainly intended to protect against a terrorist attack or accidents that create wreckage. For wreckage you want something like a counter missile, a wedge based weapon. I do not know what would be best against a terrorist attack, but if it came from outside the system, then Home Fleet should have handled it. Only as a last resort would the palace need a laser-headed missile.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I doubt Palace defenses that are dedicated to orbital intercepts are much different than ship to ship missiles, or what's the point?

I can see smaller less capable versions for atmospheric intercepts, yes. It still makes me shudder. Honor's pilot was extremely capable and he almost forced a miss. If any other belligerents are as good, or even if the missile simply misses and loses lock, what happens to an unfortunate neighborhood? I don't think I would feel any better living around a military target that occasionally launches missiles to swat vermin flying above me. Just saying.

The point is that you normally would not be shooting at ships in the orbitals, since an enemy that controls the orbitals is allowed to do all sorts of things. The palace defenses are mainly intended to protect against a terrorist attack or accidents that create wreckage. For wreckage you want something like a counter missile, a wedge based weapon. I do not know what would be best against a terrorist attack, but if it came from outside the system, then Home Fleet should have handled it. Only as a last resort would the palace need a laser-headed missile.

I am none too sure about that. Normally you would hope not to have to shoot at ships in orbitals. But I see no reason Palace defenses cannot target warships attempting to enter orbit, before they actually control the orbitals. Effectively, using Palace defenses as rooks. Can an enemy indiscriminately fire on the planet simply because the planet engages them? Not according to the text Jonathan posted. An enemy can fire on the military emplacement which fires on them. I think that is part of why you must control the orbitals, so you will be in a position to effect discriminating attacks.

And what about a Trojan horse in orbit, or a rogue ship? Point being, I see no reason that Palace defenses cannot be armed with current ship to ship missiles. Especially if those missiles can clear the atmosphere before bringing up their wedge.

Heck, Palace defenses could choose to destroy the Space Stations to keep them from falling into enemy hands, or if they have already fallen.

tlb wrote:

n7axw wrote:There are no slaves on Darius. Textev in TEIF establishes that it's entire population is composed of Alignment members numbering about 4 billion. I would imagine that includes alphas, betas and so on down the chain of stratification.

To double check text evidence, go to the first encounter with Zach McBryde on page 166 of 688(23%) in my e pub edition which bn uses on its nooks.

Don

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kzt wrote:They are not 'slaves'. But they are not free either.

Here is a quote from To End in Fire (that I had to type, so please check the text), page 88 (hardback):

Galton was a harsher, harder and far more militant entity than Darius had ever been. It was also the reason that even though Galton's cloned workforce might not be called slaves they were still indentured servants -- workers indentured for a lifetime and, at best, a step below Mesa's seccies. Galton never treated them with the brutality of Manpower, their physical standard of living was actually quite good, and the perversions routinely practiced upon "pleasure slaves" were strictly prohibited, but they remained noncitizens, with no voice in their governance, their employment, the places they lived ...

Darius's cloned workforce had never been slaves, never been indentured. Like every Dariusan, their lives were more regimented than they might have been elsewhere, but that was because of the great cause in which they, just as much as any alpha- or beta-line member of the Alignment, were fully invested. And that, too, was part of the Plan.

So: if you want to call the workers at Darius slaves, then you will need to call the Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines at Darius slaves also. I believe that pushes the definition of "slave" too far. To extend what KZT said; none of the people on Darius are completely free, but that is part of being at constant war. The same can be said of the people at Bolthole, even under the renewed Republic of Haven.

I don't have a problem extending the umbrella to include all of the various lines, including the Alphas, Betas and Gammas.

On the contrary, I think any one of them pushes the definition of "free" too far.

Neither a present day prostitute who has a pimp, or a trafficked sex-worker can do what they please. They cannot choose to do anything else. They cannot leave their circumstance. How can that be considered free? The result of any of their decisions that don't match with what they were created for is instant death.

If someone puts a gadget around your neck that blows your head off if you fall out of compliance, how is that free?

Heck, the whole of the population of the USSR during the Cold War cannot be considered free, and they had more freedom than anybody in the Alignment. They only had to escape the KGB, not implanted kill switches.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The LDs currently make no sense. On one hand, Maddock seemed to think that they could take on anyone's navy. Maybe he was just being hyperbolic and wasn't completely aware of the limitations of the design. It's not like he would have been given all the details in the Mesan Alignment Navy. On the other, they are glass eggshells. Powerful eggshells, but eggshells nonetheless. A similar problem occurs for the torpedoes: they're powerful and stealthy, but slow, so they can't generate intercepts with a ship that is actively manoeuvring.

Or he may have been assuming that they'd win as long as they didn't allow a "fair fight" and relied on their stealth and unique drive to prey on navies in their anchorages, to start off wars with crippling surprise attacks on same, or to loiter near the hyper limit and wait for a target to bring itself into their sights.


After all, submarines are arguably glass cannon -- even a 20mm cannon could potentially mission kill one if caught on the surface within range. (You don't need to punch too many holes in the upper part of the pressure hull to make it very unlikely the sub will make it back to base) But used correctly most of your weapons can't touch the sub -- and it's hard to localize it well enough in 3 dimensions to hit it with the few (initially just depth charges) that can.

(Which makes me wonder what the hell the designers of the big gun [8 in+] cruiser subs [Surcouf, the RN's M-class] were thinking -- sure the gun has a higher probability of hit than an unguided torpedo; and you can carry a lot more rounds in the same volume. But it requires you surface within range of the target warship's guns and your lack of armor and need to remain completely watertight make that a very, very, easy fight to lose)

My Spider senses are tingling at not taking Maddock's statement at face value. You are not really "taking on" a navy if you are simply going to rely on attacking when they are moored.

Let's think about it. The biggest complaints about the LDs is that they appear to be glass cannons, and that they are slow comparatively, as subs are.

But, unless they are really planning on attacking only when moored, then neither of those complaints should matter because even the SLN's missiles would pose a problem for a relatively slow glass cannon. As would the SLNs slower, but marginally quicker than an LDs Accel. And I certainly don't think the LDs would be designed to be inferior to the SLN's warships. And even early ships of the SLN should pose a problem to a slow glass cannon. Unless that cannon isn't glass.

Another thing. The RMN (and any other navy at the very least, I suppose) designs its warships and doctrines around its own weapons. If the LDs are designed to withstand its own weapons, wouldn't that nullify the charge of the glass cannon?

You can't hit what you can't see. Historically, subs had to be found. And during the time of the wet navy, at least the direction of the attack was known because of the side of the ship which exploded. And in those times, only 25% of the sphere mattered. In space, you have to locate an invisible prey in 100% of the battlefield. You can't fight blind.

tlb wrote:Here is a quote from To End in Fire (that I had to type, so please check the text), page 88 (hardback):

Darius's cloned workforce had never been slaves, never been indentured. Like every Dariusan, their lives were more regimented than they might have been elsewhere, but that was because of the great cause in which they, just as much as any alpha- or beta-line member of the Alignment, were fully invested. And that, too, was part of the Plan.

cthia wrote:If someone puts a gadget around your neck that blows your head off if you fall out of compliance, how is that free?

So a society that executes traitors or spies in wartime is not free? Yes, it is not totally free, because it is wartime; but that does not reduce everyone to slavery, except those that wanted to be either a traitor or a spy.

Do you think that the cloned workforce at Darius all have the nanites (not just the Alphas, Betas and Gammas)? I would be surprised at that; personally I expect that they have been engineered to be happy and content, so there is no need to monitor them that closely.

cthia wrote:Unless that cannon isn't glass.

Another thing. The RMN (and any other navy at the very least, I suppose) designs its warships and doctrines around its own weapons. If the LDs are designed to withstand its own weapons, wouldn't that nullify the charge of the glass cannon?

You can't hit what you can't see. Historically, subs had to be found. And during the time of the wet navy, at least the direction of the attack was known because of the side of the ship which exploded. And in those times, only 25% of the sphere mattered. In space, you have to locate an invisible prey in 100% of the battlefield. You can't fight blind.

I do not think that it is possible in the Honorverse to design a spider drive ship that is graser proof. The only thing that is graser proof is the wedge, but not the sidewall. And a spider drive ship does not have a wedge.

Why wouldn't still be true that when a ship is hit, that the beam had to have come from that side of the ship? So only 50% of the sphere matters, not the full 100%? If the beam burns its way in to any extent, then you have a much more direct pointer than just knowing somewhere in the hemisphere.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Unless that cannon isn't glass.

Another thing. The RMN (and any other navy at the very least, I suppose) designs its warships and doctrines around its own weapons. If the LDs are designed to withstand its own weapons, wouldn't that nullify the charge of the glass cannon?

You can't hit what you can't see. Historically, subs had to be found. And during the time of the wet navy, at least the direction of the attack was known because of the side of the ship which exploded. And in those times, only 25% of the sphere mattered. In space, you have to locate an invisible prey in 100% of the battlefield. You can't fight blind.

I do not think that it is possible in the Honorverse to design a spider drive ship that is graser proof. The only thing that is graser proof is the wedge, but not the sidewall. And a spider drive ship does not have a wedge.

Why wouldn't still be true that when a ship is hit, that the beam had to have come from that side of the ship? So only 50% of the sphere matters, not the full 100%? If the beam burns its way in to any extent, then you have a much more direct pointer than just knowing somewhere in the hemisphere.

Torpedos didn't have the skills that missiles do. Early torpedos could not track a target, and they had to make contact with the ship to explode. Honorverse missiles can be fired from below a ship but detonate on the side of the ship or even beyond. And if the ship is completely destroyed, who can report the direction of the attack anyway.

If you cannot detect it, it is pretty much graser proof. Unless you get lucky. If you are going to need luck to defeat your enemy, bring along your own body bags.