Attacking Darius:

cthia wrote:The MAlign has displayed its affinity for fall back positions. They fled Mesa. Galton was a misdirection. Darius is a planet of slaves. Where do the MA actually live?

Are slaves really slaves, if they do not know they are slaves? Prior to the American Civil War, Southern apologists claimed that "chattel slavery was more humane than the system of 'wage slavery' that prevailed in the industrial North and Great Britain", because owners took better care of property. However a chattel knows that the condition exists and can only be escaped at great danger to life and limb, while the wage earner can seek better employment elsewhere.

If the people, who are not in the top tiers at Darius, are happy and do not feel exploited; then there is no better place for the Alphas, Betas and Gammas of the Malign to live. As long as the lower classes have the ability to change jobs to find the one that suits them best, then they are not exactly slaves nor serfs; instead they are simply the masses living in an aristocracy, or more negatively an oligarchy.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:The MAlign has displayed its affinity for fall back positions. They fled Mesa. Galton was a misdirection. Darius is a planet of slaves. Where do the MA actually live?

Are slaves really slaves, if they do not know they are slaves? Prior to the American Civil War, Southern apologists claimed that "chattel slavery was more humane than the system of 'wage slavery' that prevailed in the industrial North and Great Britain", because owners took better care of property. However a chattel knows that the condition exists and can only be escaped at great danger to life and limb, while the wage earner can seek better employment elsewhere.

If the people, who are not in the top tiers at Darius, are happy and do not feel exploited; then there is no better place for the Alphas, Betas and Gammas of the Malign to live. As long as the lower classes have the ability to change jobs to find the one that suits them best, then they are not exactly slaves nor serfs; instead they are simply the masses living in an aristocracy, or more negatively an oligarchy.

At the end of the day, does it matter how they think of themselves rather than how the MAlign view them? The MA would certainly throw them under the bus, since it threw Galton under the bus. I would wager they viewed Galton in an even better light than they view the slaves. And if they are willing to sacrifice any of the lines for the common good, then certainly the entire planet of slaves would be "left holding the bag."

Besides, in another thread I question the wisdom of allowing the slaves to see the difference between the castes. It would be like allowing the poorest of a population to live among the truly rich. Envy and eye-opening greed sets in.

And what happens when the upper crust starts developing feelings for slaves? The MA cannot afford a foray into the realm of emotions.

kzt wrote:My point is the RMN is not taking the threat of a fleet of ships that cannot be detected seriously. It's as if the entire US Navy after Pearl Harbor decided that they didn't believe in aircraft carriers and pretended they didn't exist.

I certainly agree. If David follows the outline laid out by history, the maiden voyage of the Spiders will be devastating. When subs hit the scene, they were so effective that entire governments started crying and calling them "An indecent enemy and cowards who won't fight out in the open."

The GA doesn't even come close to appreciating what they are up against. They probably don't see a tactical use for a spider ship, rather than a long range strategic use.

They won't know any different until history repeats itself.


WTF WAS THAT?!

cthia wrote:The MAlign has displayed its affinity for fall back positions. They fled Mesa. Galton was a misdirection. Darius is a planet of slaves. Where do the MA actually live?

tlb wrote:Are slaves really slaves, if they do not know they are slaves? Prior to the American Civil War, Southern apologists claimed that "chattel slavery was more humane than the system of 'wage slavery' that prevailed in the industrial North and Great Britain", because owners took better care of property. However a chattel knows that the condition exists and can only be escaped at great danger to life and limb, while the wage earner can seek better employment elsewhere.

If the people, who are not in the top tiers at Darius, are happy and do not feel exploited; then there is no better place for the Alphas, Betas and Gammas of the Malign to live. As long as the lower classes have the ability to change jobs to find the one that suits them best, then they are not exactly slaves nor serfs; instead they are simply the masses living in an aristocracy, or more negatively an oligarchy.

cthia wrote:At the end of the day, does it matter how they think of themselves rather than how the MAlign view them? The MA would certainly throw them under the bus, since it threw Galton under the bus. I would wager they viewed Galton in an even better light than they view the slaves. And if they are willing to sacrifice any of the lines for the common good, then certainly the entire planet of slaves would be "left holding the bag."

Besides, in another thread I question the wisdom of allowing the slaves to see the difference between the castes. It would be like allowing the poorest of a population to live among the truly rich. Envy and eye-opening greed sets in.

And what happens when the upper crust starts developing feelings for slaves? The MA cannot afford a foray into the realm of emotions.

So then, do you have any answer for your question? It sounds as though there is no place that the people of the Malign will be able to live comfortably.

Certainly the Malign could discard the underclass at Darius at some point; but before then it very much matters to the mental well being of the masses how they view their situation. You say Galton was "thrown under the bus"; certainly that applies to the people killed or injured, but in the long run the survivors could be much better off by no longer being helots in a modern day Sparta.

For the poorest of the poor to live among the truly rich is fairly common to the extent the the rich can not completely wall themselves off. It is not clear how you prevent that with slaves, since at a minimum they will see the overseer. But if the people at Darius do not see themselves as slaves and have been breed and conditioned to be content, then I do not see a problem for the aristocrats.

kzt wrote:It appears that the effect of pumping lots of gamma rays is that the gamma rays turn the air into plasma and if you apply enough energy if will bleach it and get to the surface intact.

However, even if the beam doesn't reach the surface as a graser, it won't be healthy to be under the beam. A de-focused graser is going to be spraying some radius around the aimpoint with high-intensity gamma rays. So maybe no hole in the ground, but everything drops dead.

Which is fine if you're trying to attack from orbit. But not at all useful if you're on the surface trying to shoot up through the atmosphere to hit targets in orbit.

And yet we do know that the palace has "powerful weapons emplacement" around its grounds -- and that "[t]he Mount Royal Palace defenses destroyed the two of those pieces which might have threatened Landing".

I tend to doubt those defenses would be ground launched anti-ship missiles, or even CMs -- their enormous wedges would be far too locally destructing all on their own. So presumably, while I didn't notice an explicit statement that those defenses are energy mounts that seems a reasonable supposition. But then they presumably are able to operate without subjecting the Palace and surrounding area to a giant ball of plasma blowback.

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:It appears that the effect of pumping lots of gamma rays is that the gamma rays turn the air into plasma and if you apply enough energy if will bleach it and get to the surface intact.

However, even if the beam doesn't reach the surface as a graser, it won't be healthy to be under the beam. A de-focused graser is going to be spraying some radius around the aimpoint with high-intensity gamma rays. So maybe no hole in the ground, but everything drops dead.

Which is fine if you're trying to attack from orbit. But not at all useful if you're on the surface trying to shoot up through the atmosphere to hit targets in orbit.

And yet we do know that the palace has "powerful weapons emplacement" around its grounds -- and that "[t]he Mount Royal Palace defenses destroyed the two of those pieces which might have threatened Landing".

I tend to doubt those defenses would be ground launched anti-ship missiles, or even CMs -- their enormous wedges would be far too locally destructing all on their own. So presumably, while I didn't notice an explicit statement that those defenses are energy mounts that seems a reasonable supposition. But then they presumably are able to operate without subjecting the Palace and surrounding area to a giant ball of plasma blowback.

Yeah, energy weapons as the Palace's only defenses is an assumption of mine, but it seems reasonable for the reasons you mention. We talked way too much about the destructiveness of wedges in the atmosphere.

However, another reason I mentioned the nasty effect of grasers in the atmosphere is that I don't think they should be readily used without pause, instead of just for emergency situations of dire circumstances. So, Palace defenses might include conventional missiles for attacking belligerents in the atmosphere, in case they get by the Palace's sting ships. Because with energy weapons there is the chance of missing the target and destroying something else.

Although, if grasers are used against ships in the atmosphere, I would imagine that even a near hit would bring the air breather down. "Shit, we just flew into a jet wash!"

Jonathan_S wrote:I tend to doubt those defenses would be ground launched anti-ship missiles, or even CMs -- their enormous wedges would be far too locally destructing all on their own.

Why would they be any more destructive than to a ship flying ballistically? That's how everyone fired missiles in Travis' time, before the magrail launch systems.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:The MAlign has displayed its affinity for fall back positions. They fled Mesa. Galton was a misdirection. Darius is a planet of slaves. Where do the MA actually live?

tlb wrote:Are slaves really slaves, if they do not know they are slaves? Prior to the American Civil War, Southern apologists claimed that "chattel slavery was more humane than the system of 'wage slavery' that prevailed in the industrial North and Great Britain", because owners took better care of property. However a chattel knows that the condition exists and can only be escaped at great danger to life and limb, while the wage earner can seek better employment elsewhere.

If the people, who are not in the top tiers at Darius, are happy and do not feel exploited; then there is no better place for the Alphas, Betas and Gammas of the Malign to live. As long as the lower classes have the ability to change jobs to find the one that suits them best, then they are not exactly slaves nor serfs; instead they are simply the masses living in an aristocracy, or more negatively an oligarchy.

cthia wrote:At the end of the day, does it matter how they think of themselves rather than how the MAlign view them? The MA would certainly throw them under the bus, since it threw Galton under the bus. I would wager they viewed Galton in an even better light than they view the slaves. And if they are willing to sacrifice any of the lines for the common good, then certainly the entire planet of slaves would be "left holding the bag."

Besides, in another thread I question the wisdom of allowing the slaves to see the difference between the castes. It would be like allowing the poorest of a population to live among the truly rich. Envy and eye-opening greed sets in.

And what happens when the upper crust starts developing feelings for slaves? The MA cannot afford a foray into the realm of emotions.

So then, do you have any answer for your question? It sounds as though there is no place that the people of the Malign will be able to live comfortably.

Certainly the Malign could discard the underclass at Darius at some point; but before then it very much matters to the mental well being of the masses how they view their situation. You say Galton was "thrown under the bus"; certainly that applies to the people killed or injured, but in the long run the survivors could be much better off by no longer being helots in a modern day Sparta.

For the poorest of the poor to live among the truly rich is fairly common to the extent the the rich can not completely wall themselves off. It is not clear how you prevent that with slaves, since at a minimum they will see the overseer. But if the people at Darius do not see themselves as slaves and have been breed and conditioned to be content, then I do not see a problem for the aristocrats.

Not really. I only have the same guesses I posited in other threads.

1. I can't imagine this breed of rat will let itself get caught behind a hole in the wall. A hole in the wall is somewhere with only one way in and one way out. No back door. So I always suggested the MA could live in orbit, possibly aboard a space station, with a dedicated spider ship ready to evacuate the Inner Onion and any necessary personnel when the shit hits the fan.

2. They could also live exclusively in the exclusive, posh City of Leonard. I always got the impression that Leonard's delusions of grandeur would be a grand city fit for kings, err, Alphas and Inner Onion only. Like Billionaire's Row and Kuwait City. The planet has to be getting very small and the walls must appear to be closing in around them, constantly having to worry about keeping information away from the slaves. The slaves have been controlled by brainwashing via a radio-free Europa for centuries. If everyone lives on planet, then, yes, the walls must surely be closing in, with slaves, Alphas, Inner Onions, Outer Onions, Beta's, etc. And now there is also the influx of the Houdinites to add to the mix.

Jonathan_S wrote:I tend to doubt those defenses would be ground launched anti-ship missiles, or even CMs -- their enormous wedges would be far too locally destructing all on their own. So presumably, while I didn't notice an explicit statement that those defenses are energy mounts that seems a reasonable supposition. But then they presumably are able to operate without subjecting the Palace and surrounding area to a giant ball of plasma blowback.

We know wedges can work in the atmosphere. And grinding air into really fine air = air. But if you wanted you could use a rocket booster to get a missile into the stratosphere going Mach 10 in about 10 seconds.

You could also use a IR, visible or near UV laser, from little longer then 2950 Å to IR. Or a properly designed charged particle beam, though that is going to not get much past 100km altitude if I understand the physics.

Oh, and another term for a charged particle beam weapon is a plasma gun.

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I tend to doubt those defenses would be ground launched anti-ship missiles, or even CMs -- their enormous wedges would be far too locally destructing all on their own. So presumably, while I didn't notice an explicit statement that those defenses are energy mounts that seems a reasonable supposition. But then they presumably are able to operate without subjecting the Palace and surrounding area to a giant ball of plasma blowback.

We know wedges can work in the atmosphere. And grinding air into really fine air = air. But if you wanted you could use a rocket booster to get a missile into the stratosphere going Mach 10 in about 10 seconds.

You could also use a IR, visible or near UV laser, from little longer then 2950 Å to IR. Or a properly designed charged particle beam, though that is going to not get much past 100km altitude if I understand the physics.

Oh, and another term for a charged particle beam weapon is a plasma gun.

I don't think that would be practical. I thought about all kinds of elaborate ways to pull it off, but it just came back down to plain old practicality. A missile every 10 seconds after you see what each previous missile accomplished doesn't seem reasonable. You want a quick engagement system because you may not have much time. Or warning.

One method I considered is the tactic the US used for destroying a nonfunctioning satellite. We used a fighter jet to target the satellite which worked flawlessly.* It was also a warning to Russia. Can a stingship accomplish the same thing on a moment's notice?

Are there actual examples of wedges being used in the atmosphere?

* Operation Burnt Frost.