Attacking Darius:

cthia wrote:I don't think it would matter whether it is legal or not, because I certainly don't think it would be advisable, against any enemy. Let alone a malignant enemy.

I agree. It would not be advisable to take malignant enemy at its word.

(yes, I know you meant the exact opposite)

I don't think the wording of the Edict allows for playing any games. But the MA would simply send down a demonstration strike on the planet. If Sphinx's orbitals are also under their control, they would threaten to bombard the Treecat habitat, arguing that they decided to spare the lives of humans.

The Edict has no exceptions. Attack on non-military targets are forbidden, period.

You're thinking of the Deneb Accords, which rule the actions of belligerents in war. They're the ones that allow for orbital attacks in order to reduce military positions, so the other side has fewer losses when sending in an occupation force. I don't know if surrendering once the enemy controls your orbitals is part of the Accords or just an accepted tradition to avoid further bloodshed.

There's no excuse for levelling a city or habitation on purpose. That's an atrocity and a war crime. That's the same as holding someone against their will and threatening to execute them if some demands aren't met... you know, [url=forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10888]kidnapping[/url].

So the question becomes, what would those belligerents choose to do then, when they are the cause of civilians dying on the planet.

What would happen is the RMN would be tasked with firing on their own warships.

That's a good question, independent of the Edict and the Accords. Knowing that the Alignment might well commit such atrocities if the RMN doesn't surrender fully and unconditionally, should they surrender?

The problem is that this consideration implies the enemy is without honour (pun intended), so how can you trust them to not do it anyway after you've surrendered your means of fighting back?

Loren Pechtel wrote:I wasn't even thinking of supplying a fleet. Just some drones kept in storage until a suitable target comes along. Think insurgency, not fleet action.

I understand. The difference I was trying to make is about a condition the Alignment planners should plan for and one they simply have to accept. Left-over Alliance hardware will still be out there, and will be a threat for them for a long while. I don't think there's much they can do about it, other than shore up their own hardware to not be vulnerable to it, somehow.

But leaving a fleet in being behind? No, that's something they have to have a plan for. Especially if you're royally pissing them off by conquering their home system or worse.

cthia wrote:But a question arises. These are belligerents. If the MA's hand is forced and they run out of military targets, what then? Continued bombardments at their discretion?

Suck it up and continue to send your troops through the meatgrinder. War isn't supposed to be pretty. Asymmetric wars much less so.

If you don't have the troops or stomach to achieve this, you should reconsider your idea of occupation in the first place.

And, how long does a navy have to play that game? If Manticore knows their orbitals will soon be under MA control, wouldn't they simply order the evacuation of personnel from all of their military targets? If no lost of lives are a result of these bombardments, the enemy may decide to turn up the heat to end it.

Of course. With an honourable enemy, if all is lost, they'd abandon the military targets, scuttle anything that the enemy could use to their own efforts, then surrender.

Surrender is the end of the overt war and the start of the insurgency.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:I wasn't even thinking of supplying a fleet. Just some drones kept in storage until a suitable target comes along. Think insurgency, not fleet action.

I understand. The difference I was trying to make is about a condition the Alignment planners should plan for and one they simply have to accept. Left-over Alliance hardware will still be out there, and will be a threat for them for a long while. I don't think there's much they can do about it, other than shore up their own hardware to not be vulnerable to it, somehow.

But leaving a fleet in being behind? No, that's something they have to have a plan for. Especially if you're royally pissing them off by conquering their home system or worse.

I don't buy that. It implies that the RMN does not have control of its weapons at all times. They can simply deactivate all weapons.

cthia wrote:I don't buy that. It implies that the RMN does not have control of its weapons at all times. They can simply deactivate all weapons.

With what, a master command backdoor? What would have happened if the Peeps had got access to that code during the war?

No, no one creates such a big vulnerability on purpose. Only politicians think it's a good idea to add backdoors.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't buy that. It implies that the RMN does not have control of its weapons at all times. They can simply deactivate all weapons.

With what, a master command backdoor? What would have happened if the Peeps had got access to that code during the war?

No, no one creates such a big vulnerability on purpose. Only politicians think it's a good idea to add backdoors.

Beats me, but you better have something. Only an idiot navy has weapons running around uncontrolled. That is a good way to start a war.

Sorry, it wasn't supposed to do that. Can you imagine a rogue weapon attacking 8th Fleet when Honor visited Haven?

cthia wrote:Beats me, but you better have something. Only an idiot navy has weapons running around uncontrolled. That is a good way to start a war.

Sorry, it wasn't supposed to do that. Can you imagine a rogue weapon attacking 8th Fleet when Honor visited Haven?

There's a major difference between proper authentications to activate and use a weapon and a master code to disable all of them on other ships.

Important in that difference is that COs have the authentication codes for their weapons. The actual mechanics for this aren't discussed for the Honorverse, but taking from Walter Jon Williams, all officers in a ship wear physical electronic keys on chains around their necks, and transfer of command implies updating the ship's databases with the new CO's keys and there are contingencies for the case when the CO and XO are incapacitated.

So if a fleet went rogue, it would have full use of everything it carried. The first thing it would do is change all encryption codes so other units from the same fleet couldn't hack them.

cthia wrote:Thanks for that text. Now that you posted it I recall.

But a question arises. These are belligerents. If the MA's hand is forced and they run out of military targets, what then? Continued bombardments at their discretion?

And, how long does a navy have to play that game? If Manticore knows their orbitals will soon be under MA control, wouldn't they simply order the evacuation of personnel from all of their military targets? If no lost of lives are a result of these bombardments, the enemy may decide to turn up the heat to end it.

I believe the point of the bombardments allowed by the Edict is to destroy the ability to resist a military landing -- by destroying the surface to orbit and surface to air defenses that could engage your assault shuttles, stingships, and pinnaces, by destroying the military command and control that could coordinate resistance, by destroying the military formations that could engage the landings, and the government decision makers that could order such resistance.

Basically rendering further resistance useless.

So, presumably, if you run out of such targets and still the planet hasn't surrendered, the next step would be to land your troops and occupy the planet -- or at least key parts of it. And should hidden military forces attempt to oppose you they'd also be eligible for bombardment.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Beats me, but you better have something. Only an idiot navy has weapons running around uncontrolled. That is a good way to start a war.

Sorry, it wasn't supposed to do that. Can you imagine a rogue weapon attacking 8th Fleet when Honor visited Haven?

There's a major difference between proper authentications to activate and use a weapon and a master code to disable all of them on other ships.

Important in that difference is that COs have the authentication codes for their weapons. The actual mechanics for this aren't discussed for the Honorverse, but taking from Walter Jon Williams, all officers in a ship wear physical electronic keys on chains around their necks, and transfer of command implies updating the ship's databases with the new CO's keys and there are contingencies for the case when the CO and XO are incapacitated.

So if a fleet went rogue, it would have full use of everything it carried. The first thing it would do is change all encryption codes so other units from the same fleet couldn't hack them.

I was responding to the idea of errant drones. Rogue warships would certainly be the responsibility of the RMN. Fire on your rogue ships or we fire on the planet. In case of drones, they can be ordered to head out of the system. Something, anything to take them out of play. Or, military targets on the planet will take the heat.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks for that text. Now that you posted it I recall.

But a question arises. These are belligerents. If the MA's hand is forced and they run out of military targets, what then? Continued bombardments at their discretion?

And, how long does a navy have to play that game? If Manticore knows their orbitals will soon be under MA control, wouldn't they simply order the evacuation of personnel from all of their military targets? If no lost of lives are a result of these bombardments, the enemy may decide to turn up the heat to end it.

I believe the point of the bombardments allowed by the Edict is to destroy the ability to resist a military landing -- by destroying the surface to orbit and surface to air defenses that could engage your assault shuttles, stingships, and pinnaces, by destroying the military command and control that could coordinate resistance, by destroying the military formations that could engage the landings, and the government decision makers that could order such resistance.

Basically rendering further resistance useless.

So, presumably, if you run out of such targets and still the planet hasn't surrendered, the next step would be to land your troops and occupy the planet -- or at least key parts of it. And should hidden military forces attempt to oppose you they'd also be eligible for bombardment.

I see. Somehow I think the MA will want to pass on occupation. And who is to say whether LDs will pack weapons suitable for bombardments. Planets may not like what they use. I seem to recall the SLN having weapons specifically for that.