Attacking Darius:

kzt wrote:It is unstated how strong a fort bubble is compared to a SD sidewall, I would assume it is at least comparable if not superior. Given that forts are armored more heavily than SDs and have complete armor coverage it is quite possible that a single graser torp cannot be expected to inflict a mission kill on a fort. It is possible that even a large number cannot be expected to do this. Don't know.

I thought it was stated they were stronger than any sidewall that has ever existed, though not as strong as a proper wedge (which is impenetrable).

By the way, have others noticed that the forts at Galton had wedges? Not bubblewalls. Given their mass, they couldn't use those wedges to move with any rush, but they could be used to defend the fort.

But a few dozen LDs showing up at Manticore without detection would be very, very bad for Manticore. And there are techniques by which they can get much closer then a few light months if they are willing to surrender operational surprise. So the RMN knows something bad has arrived, but not where.

Agreed, but "very bad" is still a far cry from "lethal" or, even worse, being able to capture the system and demand surrender. A couple dozen SDs can't do that, so long as they can be crippled by whatever mobile defences and military pinnaces weren't destroyed in the initial strike. Though, see the tactics as yet unrevealed...

Either way, a few dozen LDs is 48 ships. Multiply that by the number of systems that must be attacked (5 capital home systems, which are 6 star systems, plus at least another 4 major shipyard systems) and we reach 480 ships, all sent simultaneously on multi-month missions.

And then there's Bolthole. Its location is not known to the Alignment and it can't be attacked from stealth due to the heavy dust clouds surrounding it.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
By the way, have others noticed that the forts at Galton had wedges? Not bubblewalls. Given their mass, they couldn't use those wedges to move with any rush, but they could be used to defend the fort.

FWIW the forts at Manticore's junction, and so presumably the forts within the system itself, have both.

Most of the time they orbit with their bubble sidewalls up -- but when necessary they can switch to wedges and conventional sidewalls to reposition themselves (and then switch back)

(This is mentioned directly when discussion how the outer rings of Junction forts could move inwards to fill any holes a hostile transit might blow in the innermost ring of forts)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And how are they going to make sure there's no sabotage? If you were an MAN CO, would you dock your ship to a conquered space station to receive repairs from the conquered technicians? That's the best opportunity for the conquered people to acquire intel on your stealth capabilities and just what that spider drive is. The underground pipeline will have that information in no time to other systems that weren't conquered and are gearing up for resistance.

And even if you can force the conquered technicians to behave how do you deal with the forces that went independent when you conquered the system? How many people are out there with a Mistletoe drone waiting for an opportunity?

Loren Pechtel wrote:And even if you can force the conquered technicians to behave how do you deal with the forces that went independent when you conquered the system? How many people are out there with a Mistletoe drone waiting for an opportunity?

Which can definitely happen. Again, q.v. the PNiE: they absconded with full warships, though they soon ran out of supplies.

So what happens if there is someone who can supply a significant fleet? That's actually leading me to think conquering the Manticore planet wouldn't suffice to the Alignment's wishes.

Just imagine that the Queen surrenders and tells the forces in the Home system to stand down. Let's even say most of them do, especially the orbital forts. But then, let's say the forces at the Junction, backed by Trevor's Star, the Talbott and Silesia Quadrants, refuse to recognise the order and say that they are now an independent nation. What then?

Whether this is legal or not is not important (and I'd argue it is, because wormholes are outside the "territorial waters" of star systems and are owned by whoever can effectively police them). It could happen and there are significant RMN forces outside of the MBS, with full supply bases. The same is true for the RHN forces outside of Haven and even worse, actually, because there are full shipyards (including the one at Bolthole). So any Alignment plan must include dealing with those, if they want to achieve swift victory.

Once Raging Justice came over the hyper limit and intruded- against warning, explicit warnings- into MBS space the SL doesn't have a choice- it is in a state of war. Note that NOBODY in the SL disavowed Filiarta or the operation. So what did they do with that new state? Set up (with the assistance and pre-planning of the Alignment) Operation Buccaneer.

Depending on how twisted you want to complicate the rational of the plot line, you could argue that by sending Harrington to Sol, Manticore actually saved the SL from descending into a level of barbarism comparable to Nazi or Soviet totalitarianism at their worst (or some other bloody dictatorship) with the slaughter of billions and destruction of much of any system's economy and infrastructure which dares to not toe the line as dictated by the Mandarins and their successors.
Because, after the several systems gutted of infrastructure and then the attack on Beowulf (a founding League Member) what was left other than the kind of sweeping rage of Civil War amoung the various League Members as they position or preempt against moves by other Members to grab up non-league members for resources for break out blocks of League Members looking to create what the RF springs up with. You know, internal defensive alliances against other members and various probable opportunistic entities. Just exactly what the Alignment was looking for. Let the League fragments rip each other to bits and sweep up the pieces

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:And even if you can force the conquered technicians to behave how do you deal with the forces that went independent when you conquered the system? How many people are out there with a Mistletoe drone waiting for an opportunity?

Which can definitely happen. Again, q.v. the PNiE: they absconded with full warships, though they soon ran out of supplies.

So what happens if there is someone who can supply a significant fleet? That's actually leading me to think conquering the Manticore planet wouldn't suffice to the Alignment's wishes.

Just imagine that the Queen surrenders and tells the forces in the Home system to stand down. Let's even say most of them do, especially the orbital forts. But then, let's say the forces at the Junction, backed by Trevor's Star, the Talbott and Silesia Quadrants, refuse to recognise the order and say that they are now an independent nation. What then?

Whether this is legal or not is not important (and I'd argue it is, because wormholes are outside the "territorial waters" of star systems and are owned by whoever can effectively police them). It could happen and there are significant RMN forces outside of the MBS, with full supply bases. The same is true for the RHN forces outside of Haven and even worse, actually, because there are full shipyards (including the one at Bolthole). So any Alignment plan must include dealing with those, if they want to achieve swift victory.

I don't think it would matter whether it is legal or not, because I certainly don't think it would be advisable, against any enemy. Let alone a malignant enemy.

I don't think the wording of the Edict allows for playing any games. But the MA would simply send down a demonstration strike on the planet. If Sphinx's orbitals are also under their control, they would threaten to bombard the Treecat habitat, arguing that they decided to spare the lives of humans.

So the question becomes, what would those belligerents choose to do then, when they are the cause of civilians dying on the planet.

What would happen is the RMN would be tasked with firing on their own warships.

cthia wrote:I don't think the wording of the Edict allows for playing any games. But the MA would simply send down a demonstration strike on the planet. If Sphinx's orbitals are also under their control, they would threaten to bombard the Treecat habitat, arguing that they decided to spare the lives of humans.

My understanding is that that would be a violation of the Edict. The Edict spells out what the valid orbital bombardment targets are, should that contingency come to pass, -- and none of those categories include parks, wilderness reserves, or undeveloped land -- regardless of whether or not it is occupied by any sentients.

RFC's explanation was

runsforcelery wrote:At that point, the attackers are entitled to summon the planet to surrender upon pain of bombardment from space. If the defenders choose not to surrender, then the attackers are justified in using bombardment to take out specific military targets rather than sending their assault forces down to be slaughtered trying to take them with infantry or armored units in an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

The military targets which are legitimate candidates for bombardment are also clearly understood to fall into specifically limited categories. They may be command-and-control nodes, such as planetary military and/or political command structures and facilities. They may be tactical weapons positions or troop concentrations. They may be civilian communications facilities which have military applications. However, all of them must have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities.

So no threatening to bombard treecats, nor could you threaten targets of cultural or historic importance to the planet (regardless of how few collateral casualties that might cause) unless they happened to fall into one of the allowed categories.
Have a culturally/historically important building that houses your parliaments, leaders, or military C&C and that could be on the table. But have a culturally important monument and it wouldn't be.

Of course if an attacker doesn't care about the Edict then the illegality won't prevent them from violating its rules about orbital bombardment. But they then shouldn't be surprised if their planet becomes subjects to orbital bombardment in turn as soon as it's located.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't think the wording of the Edict allows for playing any games. But the MA would simply send down a demonstration strike on the planet. If Sphinx's orbitals are also under their control, they would threaten to bombard the Treecat habitat, arguing that they decided to spare the lives of humans.

My understanding is that that would be a violation of the Edict. The Edict spells out what the valid orbital bombardment targets are, should that contingency come to pass, -- and none of those categories include parks, wilderness reserves, or undeveloped land -- regardless of whether or not it is occupied by any sentients.

RFC's explanation was

runsforcelery wrote:At that point, the attackers are entitled to summon the planet to surrender upon pain of bombardment from space. If the defenders choose not to surrender, then the attackers are justified in using bombardment to take out specific military targets rather than sending their assault forces down to be slaughtered trying to take them with infantry or armored units in an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

The military targets which are legitimate candidates for bombardment are also clearly understood to fall into specifically limited categories. They may be command-and-control nodes, such as planetary military and/or political command structures and facilities. They may be tactical weapons positions or troop concentrations. They may be civilian communications facilities which have military applications. However, all of them must have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities.

So no threatening to bombard treecats, nor could you threaten targets of cultural or historic importance to the planet (regardless of how few collateral casualties that might cause) unless they happened to fall into one of the allowed categories.
Have a culturally/historically important building that houses your parliaments, leaders, or military C&C and that could be on the table. But have a culturally important monument and it wouldn't be.

Of course if an attacker doesn't care about the Edict then the illegality won't prevent them from violating its rules about orbital bombardment. But they then shouldn't be surprised if their planet becomes subjects to orbital bombardment in turn as soon as it's located.

Thanks for that text. Now that you posted it I recall.

But a question arises. These are belligerents. If the MA's hand is forced and they run out of military targets, what then? Continued bombardments at their discretion?

And, how long does a navy have to play that game? If Manticore knows their orbitals will soon be under MA control, wouldn't they simply order the evacuation of personnel from all of their military targets? If no lost of lives are a result of these bombardments, the enemy may decide to turn up the heat to end it.

Brigade XO wrote:Once Raging Justice came over the hyper limit and intruded- against warning, explicit warnings- into MBS space the SL doesn't have a choice- it is in a state of war. Note that NOBODY in the SL disavowed Filiarta or the operation. So what did they do with that new state? Set up (with the assistance and pre-planning of the Alignment) Operation Buccaneer.

I'm not trying to deny reality. It was indeed a state of war and everyone with two neurons to spare could see it. Manticore explicitly recognised it as such too.

But the SL legally did not. They never declared war on Manticore and the Mandarins did not have "Emergency Powers Act." At best, they had an "Authorisation for the Use of Force" but that still bound their expenditures, their ability to command resources, and especially their ability to collect revenue to peace-time procedures.

Depending on how twisted you want to complicate the rational of the plot line, you could argue that by sending Harrington to Sol, Manticore actually saved the SL from descending into a level of barbarism comparable to Nazi or Soviet totalitarianism at their worst

Indeed. It's almost as if that was Someone's Plan...

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:And even if you can force the conquered technicians to behave how do you deal with the forces that went independent when you conquered the system? How many people are out there with a Mistletoe drone waiting for an opportunity?

Which can definitely happen. Again, q.v. the PNiE: they absconded with full warships, though they soon ran out of supplies.

So what happens if there is someone who can supply a significant fleet? That's actually leading me to think conquering the Manticore planet wouldn't suffice to the Alignment's wishes.

I wasn't even thinking of supplying a fleet. Just some drones kept in storage until a suitable target comes along. Think insurgency, not fleet action.