Attacking Darius:

The MA has not captured or established any bases near the enemies Home System. But with their total stealth, do they have to? With their total stealth, an entire operation can theoretically be hidden from prying eyes almost under prying noses.

If Darius can get as much lead time that it is about to be attacked as the RMN did with Operation Raging Justice, can they take advantage of the dispersal of the GA fleet?

If the LDs are in place and poised to attack and they get wind of an operation against Darius is close, can and should the MA wait until those forces depart for Darius - thus weakening the MBS - before attacking.

Can they then, at the very least, force a stalemate? Can a stalemate exist?

Stalemate = You control our orbitals. We control yours.

cthia wrote:The MA has not captured or established any bases near the enemies Home System. But with their total stealth, do they have to? With their total stealth, an entire operation can theoretically be hidden from prying eyes almost under prying noses.

If Darius can get as much lead time that it is about to be attacked as the RMN did with Operation Raging Justice, can they take advantage of the dispersal of the GA fleet?

If the LDs are in place and poised to attack and they get wind of an operation against Darius is close, can and should the MA wait until those forces depart for Darius - thus weakening the MBS - before attacking.

Can they then, at the very least, force a stalemate? Can a stalemate exist?

Stalemate = You control our orbitals. We control yours.

Well, that's one possibility.

The other is to position ammo ships out in the Oort Cloud and push all the spiders out somewhere. Like way out of the plane, which also allows you to run laser comms for planning.

Oh, and you ensure that all the graser torps you can't fit on the spiders are deployed far enough out from the planet that they won't get spotted.

Then Honor Harrington shows up and camps out to intimidate and reduce the defenses.

Since they are expecting something like what happened the last time you give it to them. Lots of missiles etc. And while they sit their being invulnerable the graser torps from the LDs and the inner system sweep in on them in a coordinated strike, the inner system going for down the throat and the LDs going for up the kilt.

Plus you go after any pickets around the system, timing their attacks to not start before the main fleet strike.

And 15 seconds behind them you have wave 2, and 30 seconds after that you have wave 3. Probably 300, 200, 150 or so.

I'd love to have the LDs coming in 30 seconds after that to obliterate the stunned survivors with SD grasers before they can get to hyper, but that's probably a bit much. But hey, it would be kind of cool if the entire Vengeance! fleet just vanishes.

Death by Overconfidence. The End.

The SLN sent Raging Justice against the MBS and got it's ass handed to them. So instead of taking that "other" 300 odd SD fleet waiting at a differnt system, it dragged on every BC it could find and and started Operation Buccaneer.
That is not trying to continue to take the war (now officially declared after Filiarta brings his fleet into SKM's system space), they go out and start destroying the system infrastructure of places who could not in anybody's wildest dream begin to attempt to defend itself against even a half squadron of BCs let alone fleets of up to a hundred.
Let's go destroy places who can't fight back and blame it on the victims. Sure, the SL had "reasons", these people were existing trading partners (in normal mercantile trade) so they had to be branded as .....can't call them traitors, they were not members of the League.....but they were "giving aid and comfort to our enemies".
So clearly the SLN and the League couldn't even think about actually trying to hit SKM again after discovering that their not-so-secret Raging Justice plan had basically brought into alliance against the SL two star nations that had been bitter enemies for some twenty years of warfare.

The next best thing is they have to do the same thing to Beowulf because ....well Bewulf told them "to hell with your hypocrisy and we are leaving---under all the correct forms and procedures.
Sigh.

Brigade XO wrote:That is not trying to continue to take the war (now officially declared after Filiarta brings his fleet into SKM's system space),

Quick note: the war was never officially declared by the SL. That's one step the Mandarins couldn't take because it wasn't up to the bureaucrats. If they had managed to get a declaration, then funding wouldn't have been a problem and pressing the local SDFs into service and under the SLN would have happened too. BSDF Adm. Holmon-Sanders couldn't argue with Tsang's orders in that case.

cthia wrote:The MA has not captured or established any bases near the enemies Home System. But with their total stealth, do they have to? With their total stealth, an entire operation can theoretically be hidden from prying eyes almost under prying noses.

The problem is the hyper footprint. You can't hide that.

If you meant hiding in the Darius system or around it, you can't hide your production facilities. You could move off everything that those facilities have produced, but not they themselves, or any non-stealth unit that is used in the supply chain. Those remain and are vulnerable.

If Darius can get as much lead time that it is about to be attacked as the RMN did with Operation Raging Justice, can they take advantage of the dispersal of the GA fleet?

If the LDs are in place and poised to attack and they get wind of an operation against Darius is close, can and should the MA wait until those forces depart for Darius - thus weakening the MBS - before attacking.

Can they then, at the very least, force a stalemate? Can a stalemate exist?

Stalemate = You control our orbitals. We control yours.

That's not a stalemate because of communication lag.

That's mutual destruction and pyrrhic victory. The LDs would return to find the entire Darius infrastructure destroyed, so they'd die on the vine due to inability to resupply and refit. The Darius population would also have surrendered, even if the Onion leadership escaped again.

Those LDs might have wrecked havoc while away, but none of the Home Systems they're attacking are going to be left undefended, or anywhere near the defence / offence ratio that Darius would find itself at. But even in the worst case scenario for the GA, the GA can recover much more quickly than Darius can.

So it might have been a final spite of the Alignment, but the military part of the Plan is over, for at least a few centuries.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:The MA has not captured or established any bases near the enemies Home System. But with their total stealth, do they have to? With their total stealth, an entire operation can theoretically be hidden from prying eyes almost under prying noses.

The problem is the hyper footprint. You can't hide that.

If you meant hiding in the Darius system or around it, you can't hide your production facilities. You could move off everything that those facilities have produced, but not they themselves, or any non-stealth unit that is used in the supply chain. Those remain and are vulnerable.

I am talking about an actual base near Manticoran space. A staging area and a support for operations. That is why bases and systems are acquired in the first place. They are used as a strategic point from where you can leapfrog to attack the enemy. You can take all of the time you want to stockpile and fortify your base with necessities. Especially if it is hidden. Can you imagine the value of a hidden American base near Russia?

Since the MA enjoys total stealth, why would they need to hide a hyper footprint? They are dropping out of hyper in the middle of nowhere. Or their base may be in an uninhabitable system near Manticore right under their nose as Bolthole was in a place the RMN never thought to look. Also, freighters could be fitted with spider drives as well.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:If Darius can get as much lead time that it is about to be attacked as the RMN did with Operation Raging Justice, can they take advantage of the dispersal of the GA fleet?

If the LDs are in place and poised to attack and they get wind of an operation against Darius is close, can and should the MA wait until those forces depart for Darius - thus weakening the MBS - before attacking.

Can they then, at the very least, force a stalemate? Can a stalemate exist?

Stalemate = You control our orbitals. We control yours.

That's not a stalemate because of communication lag.

That's mutual destruction and pyrrhic victory. The LDs would return to find the entire Darius infrastructure destroyed, so they'd die on the vine due to inability to resupply and refit. The Darius population would also have surrendered, even if the Onion leadership escaped again.

Those LDs might have wrecked havoc while away, but none of the Home Systems they're attacking are going to be left undefended, or anywhere near the defence / offence ratio that Darius would find itself at. But even in the worst case scenario for the GA, the GA can recover much more quickly than Darius can.

So it might have been a final spite of the Alignment, but the military part of the Plan is over, for at least a few centuries.

I don't mean undefended, but conquerable.

At any rate, I disagree. Or agree for different reasons than your own. Once the orbitals are controlled, Manticore must surrender.

Even though the RMN controls Darius' orbitals, it is not written in stone that they have control of anything other than a planet of slaves. But Manticore is definitely the location of the Manty hive.

What communication lag? You control the orbitals, you control the MWJ.

cthia wrote:I am talking about an actual base near Manticoran space. A staging area and a support for operations. That is why bases and systems are acquired in the first place. They are used as a strategic point from where you can leapfrog to attack the enemy. You can take all of the time you want to stockpile and fortify your base with necessities. Especially if it is hidden. Can you imagine the value of a hidden American base near Russia?

Sure, there are plenty of uninhabited systems around everything. Plenty of useless red dwarf systems or even high-K-class ones that aren't suitable for habitation today. Or, for that matter, blue hypergiant stars: Sirius is, after all a mere 2.6 pc (8.7 light-years) from us (it's an A0, so not exactly a blue hypergiant, but nearly there). Moreover, there are certainly going to be systems with suitable rubble or asteroid belts that could be used for industry.

Why no one has done that in the Honorverse is still unexplained. It doesn't help the storyline as the author wants to tell it, but internal consistency is missing here.

Since the MA enjoys total stealth, why would they need to hide a hyper footprint? They are dropping out of hyper in the middle of nowhere. Or their base may be in an uninhabitable system near Manticore right under their nose as Bolthole was in a place the RMN never thought to look. Also, freighters could be fitted with spider drives as well.

It doesn't help if they drop out 8 light-years away from the target. If they come in n-space, it's going to take them a minimum of 10 years, probably more (you don't want to run your particle shielding at the limit for 10 years), to reach your target.

So how do they plan on reaching the target in the first place?

I don't mean undefended, but conquerable.

At any rate, I disagree. Or agree for different reasons than your own. Once the orbitals are controlled, Manticore must surrender.

I don't think that Manticore is conquerable with just a handful of LDs. It would need to be at a minimum a dozen squadrons worth. And then it would need to simultaneously happen to all the other GA capital planets and production centres, so we're talking about another half dozen targets or so. We're talking about an MAN that fields north of 600 capital ships.

It ain't gonna happen. The books will end before that.

And besides, if their home base is wrecked and unable to support them, how are they going to enforce their will on the conquered populace? Are they going to forage and make the conquered systems support them? How, considering they had to wreck the orbital industry in order to assume orbital control in the first place?

And how are they going to make sure there's no sabotage? If you were an MAN CO, would you dock your ship to a conquered space station to receive repairs from the conquered technicians? That's the best opportunity for the conquered people to acquire intel on your stealth capabilities and just what that spider drive is. The underground pipeline will have that information in no time to other systems that weren't conquered and are gearing up for resistance.

Even though the RMN controls Darius' orbitals, it is not written in stone that they have control of anything other than a planet of slaves. But Manticore is definitely the location of the Manty hive.

What communication lag? You control the orbitals, you control the MWJ.

The communication from the MWHJ to the Felix Junction is at least a week long (Beowulf to Warner, Mannerheim to Felix). That's more than enough time for what was going to happen to happen. You can't send a word to the GF commander in time to have them back down.

Not that they would.

Anyway, yes, Manticore is a System That Must Be Defended by the GA, and its loss would be devastating. But so is Darius, as far as we know, especially after Galton's loss. The Onion leadership may escape and leave only a planetful of slaves and patsies, but the industry is gone. The Onion leadership's ability to do anything is gone for centuries.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Those LDs might have wrecked havoc while away, but none of the Home Systems they're attacking are going to be left undefended, or anywhere near the defence / offence ratio that Darius would find itself at. But even in the worst case scenario for the GA, the GA can recover much more quickly than Darius can.

I don't think the LDs would fare too well against any of the main RMN systems. They are glass cannons--I'm sure their missile defenses are very good but what happens when 10,000 missiles are screaming down on each of them at half of lightspeed? They have no wedge to hide behind, they have to shoot them all down.

Loren Pechtel wrote:
I don't think the LDs would fare too well against any of the main RMN systems. They are glass cannons--I'm sure their missile defenses are very good but what happens when 10,000 missiles are screaming down on each of them at half of lightspeed? They have no wedge to hide behind, they have to shoot them all down.

It's unimportant how effective your weapons are if you can never find targets for them.

If the Manticore system hasn't gone to always having wedges, sidewalls, bow and stern walls (or bubbles for fixed installations) up all the time they are dead. The only thing that will save them is luck or the MAN running out of torpedoes.

And to date, the RMN has not demonstrated that they understand the threat or have taken any effective measures to counter it. But even if they have, it might not save them.

It's been stated that the torpedo graser is comparable to a CA graser and at a sufficiently close range, as in tens of thousands of KM, it has been stated that a CA graser can penetrate a SD sidewall.

It is unstated how strong a fort bubble is compared to a SD sidewall, I would assume it is at least comparable if not superior. Given that forts are armored more heavily than SDs and have complete armor coverage it is quite possible that a single graser torp cannot be expected to inflict a mission kill on a fort. It is possible that even a large number cannot be expected to do this. Don't know.

But a few dozen LDs showing up at Manticore without detection would be very, very bad for Manticore. And there are techniques by which they can get much closer then a few light months if they are willing to surrender operational surprise. So the RMN knows something bad has arrived, but not where.

Loren Pechtel wrote:I don't think the LDs would fare too well against any of the main RMN systems. They are glass cannons--I'm sure their missile defenses are very good but what happens when 10,000 missiles are screaming down on each of them at half of lightspeed? They have no wedge to hide behind, they have to shoot them all down.

That actually tells me David has something up his sleeve on tactics or hardware that we haven't been told yet.