Attacking Darius:

cthia wrote:The most important thing in war has never been the delivery system itself. It has always been about getting an enormous amount of firepower in range of the enemy. It doesn't matter if you have to shoot that firepower with a slingshot, launch it with a catapult, sail it over on a homemade raft, or drop it from what is essentially a tank with wings in the form of a B-52 bomber.

It wouldn't matter if the delivery systems are wooden ships, a canoe or a rowboat, just as long as they can get in close enough to get the job done. And if it has enough destructive power to destroy battleships and carriers, then that is certainly getting the job done. Heck, a motorized raft will do the job if it is mounted with a railgun and it can get close enough. Or if it fires 3-second grasers.

This delivery system discussion reminds me of the interesting fact that the first successful self-propelled torpedo, the Whitehead torpedo, was actually perfected in England only a year after the American Civil War -- so very early in the ironclad era.

In fact a number of unarmored wooden sail & steam ships mounted torpedo launchers -- and I'm aware of at least one case were a Whitehead torpedo was fired in anger from such a ship.
[Edit - I'd originally written "unarmed" when I meant "unarmored"]

That was in the May 1877 Battle of Pacocha, in the Pacific off Peru's coast. The Royal Navy HMS Shah, an unarmored steam frigate (so, sailed powered with auxiliary steam propulsion) whose armament included 4 torpedo launchers, was part of a small British force fighting the Peruvian sea-going ironclad turret monitor Huáscar. During the fight Shaw launched a Whitehead torpedo at Huáscar -- but it missed.
This was actually the earliest combat use of a self-propelled torpedo.


So, not quite a rowboat, but still you don't generally think of a wooden sailing ship launching torpedoes at you

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:The most important thing in war has never been the delivery system itself. It has always been about getting an enormous amount of firepower in range of the enemy. It doesn't matter if you have to shoot that firepower with a slingshot, launch it with a catapult, sail it over on a homemade raft, or drop it from what is essentially a tank with wings in the form of a B-52 bomber.

It wouldn't matter if the delivery systems are wooden ships, a canoe or a rowboat, just as long as they can get in close enough to get the job done. And if it has enough destructive power to destroy battleships and carriers, then that is certainly getting the job done. Heck, a motorized raft will do the job if it is mounted with a railgun and it can get close enough. Or if it fires 3-second grasers.

This delivery system discussion reminds me of the interesting fact that the first successful self-propelled torpedo, the Whitehead torpedo, was actually perfected in England only a year after the American Civil War -- so very early in the ironclad era.

In fact a number of unarmed wooden sail & steam ships mounted torpedo launchers -- and I'm aware of at least one case were a Whitehead torpedo was fired in anger from such a ship.

That was in the May 1877 Battle of Pacocha, in the Pacific off Peru's coast. The Royal Navy HMS Shah, an unarmored steam frigate (so, sailed powered with auxiliary steam propulsion) whose armament included 4 torpedo launchers, was part of a small British force fighting the Peruvian sea-going ironclad turret monitor Huáscar. During the fight Shaw launched a Whitehead torpedo at Huáscar -- but it missed.
This was actually the earliest combat use of a self-propelled torpedo.


So, not quite a rowboat, but still you don't generally think of a wooden sailing ship launching torpedoes at you

What a just in time post. I am LMAO. Oh the irony of it. Can you imagine the surprise and shock of someone not expecting it? "Holy torpedo! I thought steel came from iron! Not wood!"

Jonathan_S wrote:So, not quite a rowboat, but still you don't generally think of a wooden sailing ship launching torpedoes at you

Well, someone on a rowboat with a shoulder-mounted RPG can do a lot of damage. In the HV, replace rowboat with a chemically-propelled intra-system ship. Because you can't really row in space...

... though that's exactly what the spider does. It doesn't befit the comparison to a rowboat, but could we make the analogy to a Viking longship or a Roman bireme?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well, someone on a rowboat with a shoulder-mounted RPG can do a lot of damage. In the HV, replace rowboat with a chemically-propelled intra-system ship. Because you can't really row in space...

... though that's exactly what the spider does. It doesn't befit the comparison to a rowboat, but could we make the analogy to a Viking longship or a Roman bireme?

Roman trireme certainly? Right?

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well, someone on a rowboat with a shoulder-mounted RPG can do a lot of damage. In the HV, replace rowboat with a chemically-propelled intra-system ship. Because you can't really row in space...

... though that's exactly what the spider does. It doesn't befit the comparison to a rowboat, but could we make the analogy to a Viking longship or a Roman bireme?

Roman trireme certainly? Right?

Well, sure. But trireme actually means it has three decks of oars, not that it's 3D. Then again, a bireme also means two decks, not two sides.

But the name fits better.

You can do a lot of damage with a .75 cal smoothbore flintlock at 100yds -but 50 to 60 is better as far as aiming .
Floating a pair of wooden rafts connected by 25yds of line and each carrying barrels with 50lbs of blackpowder and slow match fuse makes a dandy "torpedo" if you can get it to catch on a ship anchored in a river (and the watch is inattentive).

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Well, exactly. So what is their primary mission and how would it be accomplished?

Total destruction of the infrastructure, and key military targets on planet.

Which would be an Eridani violation. And it would mean that if Darius is discovered it's probably destroyed with a c-frac strike. Max speed towards the planet, lob the whole magazine at the planet, drives timed to light so they burn out at impact, the ship hypers out just before hitting the limit. Nobody's got anything that can stop that.

cthia wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Well, exactly. So what is their primary mission and how would it be accomplished?

Total destruction of the infrastructure, and key military targets on planet.

Loren Pectel wrote:Which would be an Eridani violation. And it would mean that if Darius is discovered it's probably destroyed with a c-frac strike. Max speed towards the planet, lob the whole magazine at the planet, drives timed to light so they burn out at impact, the ship hypers out just before hitting the limit. Nobody's got anything that can stop that.

I don't think it is an EEV, as it is laid out in that thread. If the MAN can get into such close proximity to the planet and set up shop in orbit, they can effect Completely Surgical and Precision Planetary Strikes (CSAPPS).

It would be no different than what the SLN did to suppress an uprising. If the targets are all military targets with little to no civilian deaths, then how can that be considered an EE violation? The MAN has the means to rewrite the book on EEV.

I disagree that Manticore would respond in kind. Certainly not any forces under Honor's command. She will not allow her forces to become the MAlign. At that point she would already have lost the war. It would be a slap in the face to all of the goodwill Beth has built up in the Galaxy. In no way or fashion could it be done in honor of the Queen. These truths are to the advantage of the MAlign and may expose a Manticoran weakness. Depending upon who is asked.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well, exactly. So what is their primary mission and how would it be accomplished?

cthia wrote:Total destruction of the infrastructure, and key military targets on planet.

Loren Pectel wrote:Which would be an Eridani violation. And it would mean that if Darius is discovered it's probably destroyed with a c-frac strike. Max speed towards the planet, lob the whole magazine at the planet, drives timed to light so they burn out at impact, the ship hypers out just before hitting the limit. Nobody's got anything that can stop that.

cthia wrote:I don't think it is an EEV, as it is laid out in that thread. If the MAN can get into such close proximity to the planet and set up shop in orbit, they can effect Completely Surgical and Precision Planetary Strikes (CSAPPS).

It would be no different than what the SLN did to suppress an uprising. If the targets are all military targets with little to no civilian deaths, then how can that be considered an EE violation? The MAN has the means to rewrite the book on EEV.

I disagree that Manticore would respond in kind. Certainly not any forces under Honor's command. She will not allow her forces to become the MAlign. At that point she would already have lost the war. It would be a slap in the face to all of the goodwill Beth has built up in the Galaxy. In no way or fashion could it be done in honor of the Queen. These truths are to the advantage of the MAlign and may expose a Manticoran weakness. Depending upon who is asked.

I agree that if the destruction is limited to "infrastructure, and key military targets on planet", then it is not an Eridani Edict violation. but then the Grand Alliance would respond in kind with the capture of Darius by carrying out the total destruction of all "key military targets". Whether they would retain infrastructure that was dual use, might be carried out on a case by case basis.

cthia wrote:I don't think it is an EEV, as it is laid out in that thread. If the MAN can get into such close proximity to the planet and set up shop in orbit, they can effect Completely Surgical and Precision Planetary Strikes (CSAPPS).

The problem is the "if." Proximity isn't everything. To perform a surgical and precise strike, you need time in orbit to set it up and to place the ship in the correct orbital position. They're not going to get that because of the number of defenders still left in the system, from the OWPs in orbit of Manticore, all those forts we keep not hearing about, and the fact that in your scenario, most of Home Fleet would still be around. Not to mention that those are eggshell ships and pinnaces could take them out with their wedges.

I disagree that Manticore would respond in kind. Certainly not any forces under Honor's command. She will not allow her forces to become the MAlign. At that point she would already have lost the war. It would be a slap in the face to all of the goodwill Beth has built up in the Galaxy. In no way or fashion could it be done in honor of the Queen. These truths are to the advantage of the MAlign and may expose a Manticoran weakness. Depending upon who is asked.

Here I agree: neither Manticore nor the rest of the Galaxy would respond in kind. The majority of the population of Darius is also not to be blamed for their leaders' actions, especially since 99% of them wouldn't even know that such an action had been taken. They're as much a victim of the Onion as any planets the MAN attacked.