Why did everyone become dumb at the end of TEIF?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:That is something that we do not know to be true; in fact we expect it to be false, because the sail was invented about 100 years before the compensator. We know that scientist Adrienne Warshawski invented the sail in 1273 pd after already inventing a new device capable of scanning hyper-space for grav waves and wave shifts within five light-seconds of a starship. Whereas it was not until 1384 pd that Shigematsu Radhakrishnan invented the inertial compensator. {dates from the same source as before}

Another point is that we know the compensators use the wedge for the "gravity sump" (whatever that is) to operate. When a ship has transitioned fully to sails, it has no wedge, therefore its compensators must work with the sails.

In fact the books are explicit that compensators work, and work very well with sails -- well, as long as you're in a grav wave.

More Than Honor: Universe of Honor Harrington - (1) Background (General) wrote:Then, in 1384 pd, a physicist by the name of Shigematsu Radhakrishnan added another major breakthrough in the form of the inertial compensator. The compensator turned the grav wave (natural or artificial) associated with a vessel into a sort of "inertial sump," dumping the inertial forces of acceleration into the grav wave and thus exempting the vessel's crew from the g forces associated with acceleration. Within the limits of its efficiency, it completely eliminated g force, placing an accelerating vessel in a permanent state of internal zero-gee, but its capacity to damp inertia was directly proportional to the power of the grav wave around it and inversely proportional to both the volume of the field and the mass of the vessel about which it was generated. The first factor meant that it was far more effective for starships than for sublight ships, as the former drew upon the greater energy of the naturally occurring grav waves of hyper-space, and the second meant it was more effective for smaller ships than for larger ones. The natural grav waves of hyper-space, with their incomparably greater power, offered a much "deeper" sump than the artificial stress bands of the impeller drive, which meant that a Warshawski Sail ship could deflect vastly more g force from its passengers than one under impeller drive. In general terms, the compensator permitted humans to endure acceleration rates approaching 550 g under impeller drive and 4-5,000 g under sail, which allows hyperships to make up "bleed-off" velocity very quickly after translation. These numbers are for military compensators, which tend to be more massive, more energy and maintenance intensive, and much more expensive than those used in most merchant construction. Military compensators allow higher acceleration—and warships cannot afford to be less maneuverable than their foes—but only at the cost of penalties merchant ships as a whole cannot afford.

Nearly 10x the acceleration of your wedge when you're sailing in a grav wave.

tlb wrote:
But for the question that started the dialog, let me put it this way: it seems foolish to me to build a spider drive vessel without the ability to take advantage of hyperspace and wormholes to the utmost possible (unless it has to be so small, that it is impossible to fit everything in). That means a large enough spider drive ship will also have a hyper-drive generator (preferably with streak capability), sails and an inertial compensator (although that can be left out if space is an issue, with a resulting loss in maximum acceleration).

We already know all Spider drive warships have a hyper generator AND have the ability to use wormholes and Grav waves. David has said as much, and you need to follow Gravity waves just to enter/exit Grayson space in Hyper.

The only question is how is the effect produced. And that we just don't know.

Theemile wrote:The only question is how is the effect produced. And that we just don't know.

Following the Ford rules, you should only do one really clever but unproven system per new class.

So the sharks/ghosts might well have a real ring but they might have done something different on the LDs.

Theemile wrote:The only question is how is the effect produced. And that we just don't know.

kzt wrote:Following the Ford rules, you should only do one really clever but unproven system per new class.

So the sharks/ghosts might well have a real ring but they might have done something different on the LDs.

Would the Sharks serve as training vehicles for the Leonard Detweiler class, if the equipment was different? Or do you think that they were only to train in tactics, allowing for different equipment?

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:The only question is how is the effect produced. And that we just don't know.

kzt wrote:Following the Ford rules, you should only do one really clever but unproven system per new class.

So the sharks/ghosts might well have a real ring but they might have done something different on the LDs.

Would the Sharks serve as training vehicles for the Leonard Detweiler class, if the equipment was different? Or do you think that they were only to train in tactics, allowing for different equipment?

I don't know. The spider and stealth on the Sharks are the same as the LD, so tactical could be done. I would assume that nobody would build dozens of combat ships based around an unproven critical tech (unless you had no other option), so I would assume that the MAN has tested all the systems, at least in different hulls.

But I don't think it's safe to assume the LDs are just going to be big sharks, with all the same systems as the sharks.

My take on the Sharks is that they maneuvered close to the MBS hyper limit(s), pushed out their payload of ballistic pods plus the G-torps and crawled away again using the spider drives before hyping out as individuals. Possibly to rendezvous somewhere really quiet before heading back to Darius.
They would have likely waited in some parking orbit -having gotten there using the spider drive- until the Ghosts sent the updated target data. We don't know where but at least one of them was roughly on the ecliptic as two of the ballistic packages went by that freighter bringing cargo from an extraction site (probably gas related). They could have been scattered all around the sphere of the hyper limit but probably higher you get in relation to the plain of the system, the more work you have to do to make a ballistic intercept. If they just head off at courses that avoid the other part of the Binary System and the Junction, nobody should see the using the spider. 20 individual spiders creeping away very quietly and heavily stealthed. If by some chance a ship fleeing the system because of all the explosions was headed in the direction of any of the spiders -and be highly visible doing it with the impeller drive at max- the spiders could have shifted direction again or just hyper out if they had the generators warmed up. Once you go into hyper.

The Ghosts were inside the system. Once they sent the final targeting data, they could have all maneuvered for the best run to the hyper limit and then just kept going for quite a while on the undetectable spider drive before hyping out to a rendezvous with one or more freighters (if more than one, at differnt locations). Why do anything else which might provide data to Manticore's sensor net. Just creep quietly out to a few light hours and vanish.

As for the freighter delivering the Silver Bullet there was no need to change the name. That would actually draw some attention if this is a regularly scheduled ship. The usual ship in the rotation or one of her sisters of whatever shipping company managed the route just hauling cargo and mail etc. Come in, unload/load new cargo and head off within schedule....take on reaction mass if needed, any regular supplies depending on prices where you were, where you are and what your local agent (your company's or a 3rd party you use for local work) has for information on the next two systems you are going to. Straight forward. Everything has the right paperwork, very specifically there is no funny business with smuggling, and off you go. I don't think we know what station or platform they touched but it probably wasn't one of the ones that were bombed and it certainly would not have been delivering a bomb ......way too big chance of problems. Nobody at Beowulf has any idea where the grazer fire came from and even if there was some ionized gas cloud when it self destructed, it isn't going to be in-line with any regular approach vector to a station since it was sent to a spot where it could observe FTL traffic and yet stay out of the way of any shipping.

Theemile wrote:The only question is how is the effect produced. And that we just don't know.

kzt wrote:Following the Ford rules, you should only do one really clever but unproven system per new class.

So the sharks/ghosts might well have a real ring but they might have done something different on the LDs.

tlb wrote:Would the Sharks serve as training vehicles for the Leonard Detweiler class, if the equipment was different? Or do you think that they were only to train in tactics, allowing for different equipment?

kzt wrote:I don't know. The spider and stealth on the Sharks are the same as the LD, so tactical could be done. I would assume that nobody would build dozens of combat ships based around an unproven critical tech (unless you had no other option), so I would assume that the MAN has tested all the systems, at least in different hulls.

But I don't think it's safe to assume the LDs are just going to be big sharks, with all the same systems as the sharks.

At the time that they were built, it was the spider drive in the Sharks that were the newest equipment and the Ghosts were their testbed, but I do not know if that makes a difference to the question of Shark versus LD. From chapter 19 of Storm from the Shadows:

"Could you expedite Oyster Bay?"
"Not significantly, Father." Benjamin shook his head with the expression of a man who'd heard pretty much what he'd been afraid he was going to hear. "The spider is an entirely new technology. Daniel and I think we've gotten all of the bugs out of it, but like I told you before, we're still prototyping. Technically, I suppose, the Sharks are warships, but their primary function's always been to serve as testbeds and training vessels, not strike units. I don't see any way we could produce enough of the new hardware to carry out Oyster Bay much sooner than we've already been projecting."

Brigade XO wrote:As for the freighter delivering the Silver Bullet there was no need to change the name. That would actually draw some attention if this is a regularly scheduled ship. The usual ship in the rotation or one of her sisters of whatever shipping company managed the route just hauling cargo and mail etc. Come in, unload/load new cargo and head off within schedule....take on reaction mass if needed, any regular supplies depending on prices where you were, where you are and what your local agent (your company's or a 3rd party you use for local work) has for information on the next two systems you are going to. Straight forward. Everything has the right paperwork, very specifically there is no funny business with smuggling, and off you go. I don't think we know what station or platform they touched but it probably wasn't one of the ones that were bombed and it certainly would not have been delivering a bomb ......way too big chance of problems. Nobody at Beowulf has any idea where the grazer fire came from and even if there was some ionized gas cloud when it self destructed, it isn't going to be in-line with any regular approach vector to a station since it was sent to a spot where it could observe FTL traffic and yet stay out of the way of any shipping.

There was never a problem with the freighter that delivered the Silver Bullets; it was a perfectly normal freighter delivering to Beowulf (who just happened to jettison some cargo before arriving), so it was never suggested that that it needed to do anything special. In particular, there was nothing that might have needed to be picked up after the Silver Bullets took their shot.