Attacking Darius:

cthia wrote:IINM, there is at least two occasions where the RMN were sitting in orbit with cold impellers. I can immediately put my finger on one. D'Orville. And that was during a state of war. There is plenty of time to crank the engines and get under way when an invasion force comes acallin.

Actually, his impellers were warm.

AAC wrote:D'Orville considered what Ayrault had said. Home Fleet was still rushing to Battle Stations, but at least it was standing policy to hold his ships' nodes permanently at standby readiness, despite the additional wear that put on the components. He'd be able to get underway in the next twelve to fifteen minutes. The question was what he did when he could.

That was to honour the threat of a Havenite attack upon Sphinx. The question going forwards is whether the RMN decides to honour the threat of another invisible attack by going a step further than this and keeping a percentage of their impellers fully online constantly.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I can see ships rotating in and out of the Fleet formation for repairs and refit. That's SOP. Those ships that are in refit will indeed power down, either docked at a station's moorings or nearby. But we're talking about what, 5% of Home Fleet? And meanwhile, another equivalent 5% should have gone underway to take up position. Even in peacetime, there's no reason to stand down ALL your ships and this is not peace time.

It's not going to be 95% of Home Fleet with active impellers all the time, though. For what they can achieve, you'll have to look back to the last time they faced a possible surprise attack with minimal warning(when the Peeps held Trevor's Star) and figure out how much of the Junction forts were active at any given time. I think that was around 25%, but I can't remember if that was 25% of the forts posted at the Junction or 25% of all their forts being at the Junction.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:IINM, there is at least two occasions where the RMN were sitting in orbit with cold impellers. I can immediately put my finger on one. D'Orville. And that was during a state of war. There is plenty of time to crank the engines and get under way when an invasion force comes acallin.

Actually, his impellers were warm.

AAC wrote:D'Orville considered what Ayrault had said. Home Fleet was still rushing to Battle Stations, but at least it was standing policy to hold his ships' nodes permanently at standby readiness, despite the additional wear that put on the components. He'd be able to get underway in the next twelve to fifteen minutes. The question was what he did when he could.

That was to honour the threat of a Havenite attack upon Sphinx. The question going forwards is whether the RMN decides to honour the threat of another invisible attack by going a step further than this and keeping a percentage of their impellers fully online constantly.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I can see ships rotating in and out of the Fleet formation for repairs and refit. That's SOP. Those ships that are in refit will indeed power down, either docked at a station's moorings or nearby. But we're talking about what, 5% of Home Fleet? And meanwhile, another equivalent 5% should have gone underway to take up position. Even in peacetime, there's no reason to stand down ALL your ships and this is not peace time.

It's not going to be 95% of Home Fleet with active impellers all the time, though. For what they can achieve, you'll have to look back to the last time they faced a possible surprise attack with minimal warning(when the Peeps held Trevor's Star) and figure out how much of the Junction forts were active at any given time. I think that was around 25%, but I can't remember if that was 25% of the forts posted at the Junction or 25% of all their forts being at the Junction.

Thanks for the correction. About those warm impellers. Aren't wedges and sidewalls down during those cold nights with warm impellers?

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd point out that the peacetime USN, hardly at Defcon 1, varies between ~33-66% of its ships out of home port out working up, in transit to patrol stations, patrolling, making show the flag visits, performing freedom of navigation exercises, participating in war games, etc., etc.
They're not sitting in their home ports with the equivalent of cold impellers just waiting for an emergency or the start of a war.

You don't need to be at full war footing to keep a sizable fraction of your home fleet moving about with active impellers. That's just what navies do.

Good point. And I agree. But I am not so sure the situations are compatible. On Earth, there is always some stink, or a threat of some stink coming your way. The Americans have to worry about the Russians who have to worry about the Americans who have to worry about the Koreans and Chinese. And everybody is constantly moving chess pieces on the board creating unrest. When was the last time there was total peace on Earth? And if a nation is experiencing total peace, they'll have their navy sitting moored at some place called Pearl Harbor. Nobody is going to spend the kind of money it takes to maintain a constant vigil as we do now if there is no danger.

In the HV, during peacetime most of any home fleet will be sitting at home, most of the time. Maybe not sitting in orbit, but definitely in the Home System. However, if they are working out at Trevor's Star, the Spiders can get them from their nests when they come thru the junction. Discussion found in this thread. Yes, I still think the Spiders can lay in nests around the junction.

To be sure, I am not saying that I think the LDs will be dispatched to any Capital with their major objective being Home Fleet. I agree that that isn't reasonable. That objective could be a total waste of torps, and possibly LDs. What I am saying is that I can believe that orders would allow for an attack on Home Fleet as a minor objective if opportunity presents itself. Which begs the question of how much latitude MAN officers will have on the spot.

I think it would be hilarious if Home Fleet was attacked while it was wargaming. "Some fucking asshole is using live rounds!"

cthia wrote:Good point. And I agree. But I am not so sure the situations are compatible. On Earth, there is always some stink, or a threat of some stink coming your way. The Americans have to worry about the Russians who have to worry about the Americans who have to worry about the Koreans and Chinese. And everybody is constantly moving chess pieces on the board creating unrest. When was the last time there was total peace on Earth? And if a nation is experiencing total peace, they'll have their navy sitting moored at some place called Pearl Harbor. Nobody is going to spend the kind of money it takes to maintain a constant vigil as we do now if there is no danger.

I'll grant you that the majority of the active US Pacific fleet was in Pearl on December 7th, 1941. But not all of it. There were some in West Coast ports, some back undergoing refit, the carriers were all out and about. And of course the Atlantic Fleet was busy with its undeclared war of neutrality patrols against German surface and submarine raiders.

But the USN's carriers on Dec 7:
* USS Langley (CV-1) had been converted to a seaplane carrier by that point.
* USS Lexington (CV-2) was off, with her escorts, ferrying planes to beef up the defenses of Midway Island.
* USS Saratoga (CV-3) was in San Diego picking up her air group after coming out of refit.
* USS Ranger (CV-4) was more or less a training carrier, assigned to the Atlantic Fleet, and coming back from a show the flag visit to Trinidad and Tobago.
* USS Yorktown (CV-5) was in the Atlantic.
* USS Enterprise (CV-6) was nearly back to Pearl after delivering fighters to strengthen the defenses of Wake Island.
* USS Wasp (CV-7) was also in the Atlantic.
* USS Hornet (CV-8) was also in the Atlantic; fairly newly commissioned and performing training out of Norfolk Naval Base.

And of the Battleships:
7 were assigned to the Atlantic Fleet (Arkansas, New York [in refit], Texas, Mississippi, Idaho, North Carolina, Washington); many of which were based out of Maine to support the neutrality patrols.
7 were assigned to the Pacific Fleet.
* Oklahoma [moored in Pearl]
* Pennsylvania [in refit at Pearl]
* Arizona [moored in Pearl]
* New Mexico [en-route back from a temporary tour of duty in the Atlantic]
* Tennessee [moored in Pearl]
* California [moored in Pearl]
* Maryland [moored in Pearl]
* West Virginia [moored in Pearl]
(Note that the newest, fastest, and most powerful USN battleships were in the Atlantic, to act as a deterrent to German surface raiders, on Dec 7th)

And then there were the various cruisers, destroyers, and submarines, which are too numerous for me to want to chase down the locations on; though I know some were screening the Pacific carriers on their various missions that morning)

And the pacific fleet's battle line, while it was mostly in Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th wasn't just endlessly swinging at anchor there. Various battleships were preparing to leave on patrol, or had just returned from patrol or exercises.

So despite getting caught comprehensively unprepared, and they definitely did, the Pacific carriers were all at sea and only a minority of the USN's battle line was even in the Pacific when the surprise attack landed. (Though, yes, all the battleships that were in the Pacific were in port on that fateful morning -- and most were in very low states of readiness.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Good point. And I agree. But I am not so sure the situations are compatible. On Earth, there is always some stink, or a threat of some stink coming your way. The Americans have to worry about the Russians who have to worry about the Americans who have to worry about the Koreans and Chinese. And everybody is constantly moving chess pieces on the board creating unrest. When was the last time there was total peace on Earth? And if a nation is experiencing total peace, they'll have their navy sitting moored at some place called Pearl Harbor. Nobody is going to spend the kind of money it takes to maintain a constant vigil as we do now if there is no danger.

I'll grant you that the majority of the active US Pacific fleet was in Pearl on December 7th, 1941. But not all of it. There were some in West Coast ports, some back undergoing refit, the carriers were all out and about. And of course the Atlantic Fleet was busy with its undeclared war of neutrality patrols against German surface and submarine raiders.

But the USN's carriers on Dec 7:
* USS Langley (CV-1) had been converted to a seaplane carrier by that point.
* USS Lexington (CV-2) was off, with her escorts, ferrying planes to beef up the defenses of Midway Island.
* USS Saratoga (CV-3) was in San Diego picking up her air group after coming out of refit.
* USS Ranger (CV-4) was more or less a training carrier, assigned to the Atlantic Fleet, and coming back from a show the flag visit to Trinidad and Tobago.
* USS Yorktown (CV-5) was in the Atlantic.
* USS Enterprise (CV-6) was nearly back to Pearl after delivering fighters to strengthen the defenses of Wake Island.
* USS Wasp (CV-7) was also in the Atlantic.
* USS Hornet (CV-8) was also in the Atlantic; fairly newly commissioned and performing training out of Norfolk Naval Base.

And of the Battleships:
7 were assigned to the Atlantic Fleet (Arkansas, New York [in refit], Texas, Mississippi, Idaho, North Carolina, Washington); many of which were based out of Maine to support the neutrality patrols.
7 were assigned to the Pacific Fleet.
* Oklahoma [moored in Pearl]
* Pennsylvania [in refit at Pearl]
* Arizona [moored in Pearl]
* New Mexico [en-route back from a temporary tour of duty in the Atlantic]
* Tennessee [moored in Pearl]
* California [moored in Pearl]
* Maryland [moored in Pearl]
* West Virginia [moored in Pearl]
(Note that the newest, fastest, and most powerful USN battleships were in the Atlantic, to act as a deterrent to German surface raiders, on Dec 7th)

And then there were the various cruisers, destroyers, and submarines, which are too numerous for me to want to chase down the locations on; though I know some were screening the Pacific carriers on their various missions that morning)

And the pacific fleet's battle line, while it was mostly in Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th wasn't just endlessly swinging at anchor there. Various battleships were preparing to leave on patrol, or had just returned from patrol or exercises.

So despite getting caught comprehensively unprepared, and they definitely did, the Pacific carriers were all at sea and only a minority of the USN's battle line was even in the Pacific when the surprise attack landed. (Though, yes, all the battleships that were in the Pacific were in port on that fateful morning -- and most were in very low states of readiness.

I rather recently watched a documentary of the war. What, three battleships were en route to Pearl Harbor and would have been destroyed as well. But they were delayed for some reason that escapes me. Providence. They arrived in less than a day to see the carnage.

Could have been worse. They could have ignored Pearl and then the kido Butai and the Pacific Fleet have the massive Kantai Kessen that the IJN had dreamed of. And that leads to the entire Pacific Fleet getting sunk east of the Philippines in 8000 feet of water, as the USN totally underestimated the IJN.

cthia wrote:1. Complacency.

2. Irresponsibility.

3. Why not? It isn't like there's an entity out there that can come across the wall and not be detected. At least the RMN doesn't seem to think there is.

Sorry, I don't buy any of those because it implies either complacency or irresponsibility or both in a massive scale. It would mean the admiralty and the CO of the Home Fleet and most squadron and division COs all at the same time agreeing it's a good idea.

And I also don't buy point #3 because it's flatly false. They know there's someone out there with spiders and has attacked using those things not once but twice (as long as this isn't retconned after the Battle of Galton). They may and likely will think that their preparations, whatever those may be, are sufficient, which may give them a false sense of security that can be exploited. But that's a long way from "cold impellers in orbit of the home world."

That's like saying the Royal Navy will come to the its home ports to celebrate the Queen's 70th jubilee...

It is peacetime. Galton is gone. The RMN swallowed the bait. Hook, line, and sinker. So, as I stated in another thread. However long it takes the MA to attack, you expect the Capitals to maintain a DEFCON 1. Indefinitely. That has to be super expensive. Again, it reminds me of the Wakka Wakka sound of PACMAN gobbling up widgets, sprockets, cogs and nodes. Imagine the US at a constant state of war. DEFCON 1. We'd go broke in less than a year. It is just not practical. Now you understand why any ole government won't do. Someone has to authorize the constant expense of jumping at shadows.

Again, I don't buy "swallowing the bait" of Galton, but I admit that being wrong worries me. We'll just have to wait for the next book to find out.

And in any case, I said that even in peacetime they don't do such stupid things. I don't expect them to maintain war-time constant readiness in the ships at all times, but I do expect them to maintain SOP. That includes not being at any one place for a long time and not telegraphing a potential adversary where you're going to be half a day from now. And not massing all of your forces in the same place.

You can't compare this to wet navies of today because you can't hide surface ships from satellites. But you can hide submarines and their positions are hardly ever known, especially the ballistic missile ones. They're not running around with gunports open and the plastic cover over the nuke launch button unlatched, but they keep some SOP so they can't all be struck down before retaliation.

In the HV, you couldn't hide Home Fleet inside the hyperlimit because of their wedges, but you can hide Second or Eighth Fleet. And you don't need to be hidden to be difficult to strike.

Irrelevant. When the fleet is in orbit, Honor is visiting groundside and much of the crew are too. You expect Home Fleet to remain at DEFCON 1 indefinitely. Stop reading so much sci-fi.

I expect that when a CO or crew gets shore leave, at worst that ship and a few escorts go into orbit. The rest of Home Fleet doesn't all get shore leave at the same time. If nothing else, that would be a logistical nightmare on the space stations to arrange docking, transport, or berthing for sailors on liberty, not to mention saturated businesses.

I wouldn't be that harsh. Mankind is vulnerable to the human element. But, I am curious. What exactly is at the core of your thoughts? The only thing I can figure is your classified knowledge and fear of the spider drive. Obviously the RMN don't share either.

It's that standing down all of your mobile defences at the same time is beyond stupid. And that I don't agree that the RMN forgot about the spider.

At any rate, if the author finally advances the timeline significantly, and now seems to be a good time to do just that, you expect the entire GA to maintain DEFCON 1 for five or more years without even as much as a peep out of the "Peeps"? And, complacency doesn't even require years.

No, we know the RMN is going into peacetime footing. In fact, we know they've gone into it because the operation on Galton required reactivating ships.

But "not DEFCON 1" is a long way away from "demobilise all defences."

Providence. The Demon Murphy. They both like to crash parties. Say, like when Home Fleet is in the act of turnover for orbit and passes right by a few Spiders that decide to gift wrap a few torps. Those things seem to be patient.

Sure, luck can play a role in this. But no planner relies on luck. The MAN couldn't make a fire plan that needed time-on-target to accomplish its goals. It must find a solution that achieves its goals within the options it has. That means each swarm alone must be able to achieve the mission's primary goal. All other swarms after that either attack secondary targets, blow up, or go away to be collected.

If serendipitously two torpedo swarms happen to be able to attack at the same time, great for them.

That is another reason coordination of fire may be necessary. It is also the reason I stated in another thread that the torpedoes an LD will carry will be much more destructive. Why can't someone else's navy have a Capital ship version of missiles.

Because the torpedoes are already capital ship grade. What's more than capital ship grade?

The torpedoes carried by an LD may be more destructive, but that doesn't change the laws of probability and geometry. They still need to have a firing solution without a wedge is in the way. That's why I said that you can't rely on a 1:1 kill ratio and it needs to be more like 5:1.

Additionally, the torpedoes have never been tested against a powered RMN/GF sidewall and buckler walls. The MAN has no way to test that now, and since it didn't test its torpedoes at Galton, it won't get any data. In fact, the RMN did get some data and may make improvements upon those. This means the MAN can't know how many graser shots it needs to kill a GF capital ship, so it must err on the side of caution.

Finally, I forgot there's another capital at play: Beowulf. The BSDF didn't have any SD(P)s at the end of UH, but they were coming. Bolthole can produce 300 of them on each wave. Plus, with the RHN, GSN and RMN demobilising part of their fleets, what better solution than to sell them to Beowulf? And Beowulf presents an extra wrinkle because of the Junction: the attacks on either side of which must happen within ~15 minutes of each other, lest an FTL message via the Hermes network make its way from one to the other and raise the alarm.

Interesting ability. Perhaps KEWS could benefit from sleeping torpedoes. Was this ability used during Oyster Bay?

Pretty sure. The attack on the two stations of Manticore-A was within one minute of each other, so the two prongs needed to adjust their timing somehow.

cthia wrote:It is peacetime. Galton is gone. The RMN swallowed the bait. Hook, line, and sinker. So, as I stated in another thread. However long it takes the MA to attack, you expect the Capitals to maintain a DEFCON 1. Indefinitely. That has to be super expensive. Again, it reminds me of the Wakka Wakka sound of PACMAN gobbling up widgets, sprockets, cogs and nodes. Imagine the US at a constant state of war. DEFCON 1. We'd go broke in less than a year. It is just not practical. Now you understand why any ole government won't do. Someone has to authorize the constant expense of jumping at shadows.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Again, I don't buy "swallowing the bait" of Galton, but I admit that being wrong worries me. We'll just have to wait for the next book to find out.

And in any case, I said that even in peacetime they don't do such stupid things. I don't expect them to maintain war-time constant readiness in the ships at all times, but I do expect them to maintain SOP. That includes not being at any one place for a long time and not telegraphing a potential adversary where you're going to be half a day from now. And not massing all of your forces in the same place.

You can't compare this to wet navies of today because you can't hide surface ships from satellites. But you can hide submarines and their positions are hardly ever known, especially the ballistic missile ones. They're not running around with gunports open and the plastic cover over the nuke launch button unlatched, but they keep some SOP so they can't all be struck down before retaliation.

In the HV, you couldn't hide Home Fleet inside the hyperlimit because of their wedges, but you can hide Second or Eighth Fleet. And you don't need to be hidden to be difficult to strike.

Assuming everyone did buy the sacrifice of Galton, then why would Darius mount any military operation? Their plan was to destabilize the major political units, so people were forced to turn to the Renaissance Factor for stability. The best way to do that does not involve presenting a strong outside enemy to rally against, but instead to foment division and local hatreds. Then in another century or two, the RF will seem like the military leader on the white horse; come to save them all from dissension.

What I do not understand about this plan (same as the original plan) is why do the people then allow the introduction of genetic planning boards with every increasing power over who has what baby?

Consistent with their plans, the only reason for a military attack would be if it could overwhelm the Grand Alliance and Solarian League; forcing them to all surrender. I do not believe the author is going to write that conclusion to his stories.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:
That is another reason coordination of fire may be necessary. It is also the reason I stated in another thread that the torpedoes an LD will carry will be much more destructive. Why can't someone else's navy have a Capital ship version of missiles.

Because the torpedoes are already capital ship grade. What's more than capital ship grade?

The torpedoes carried by an LD may be more destructive, but that doesn't change the laws of probability and geometry. They still need to have a firing solution without a wedge is in the way. That's why I said that you can't rely on a 1:1 kill ratio and it needs to be more like 5:1.

Additionally, the torpedoes have never been tested against a powered RMN/GF sidewall and buckler walls. The MAN has no way to test that now, and since it didn't test its torpedoes at Galton, it won't get any data. In fact, the RMN did get some data and may make improvements upon those. This means the MAN can't know how many graser shots it needs to kill a GF capital ship, so it must err on the side of caution.

1) The torpedoes used at OB were already oversized and designed for The LDs - the Sharks had to carry them externally for the mission and was limited to 3 torpedoes per ship in special, modified racks. LDs will fire the massive (5-10Ktons) torpedoes from tubes. (btw 5-10 Ktons is the mass of 1-2+ capital missile pods).

2)There is a larger classification of missile than capital - usually called "system defense" or "independant launcher" missiles - these are just too massive to be carried by SDs in bulk, and usually have larger warheads than capital missiles. Traditionally, these were single drive missiles and had extra time on the massive drives to engage targets outside the the target's range, protecting a fixed defensive point. Newer 3,4, and 5 drive defensive missiles are in this same class.

Technically, the Cataphract C in all it's mods would be classed as one of these missiles, as it is too large to fit in a conventional SD's tubes or magazines (and only 6 can fit in a pod).

So it's possible that the LDs could have tubes to fire the Cataphract Cs - but most likely they will just carry pods of them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Because the torpedoes are already capital ship grade. What's more than capital ship grade?

The torpedoes carried by an LD may be more destructive, but that doesn't change the laws of probability and geometry. They still need to have a firing solution without a wedge is in the way. That's why I said that you can't rely on a 1:1 kill ratio and it needs to be more like 5:1.

Additionally, the torpedoes have never been tested against a powered RMN/GF sidewall and buckler walls. The MAN has no way to test that now, and since it didn't test its torpedoes at Galton, it won't get any data. In fact, the RMN did get some data and may make improvements upon those. This means the MAN can't know how many graser shots it needs to kill a GF capital ship, so it must err on the side of caution.

Theemile wrote:1) The torpedoes used at OB were already oversized and designed for The LDs - the Sharks had to carry them externally for the mission and was limited to 3 torpedoes per ship in special, modified racks. LDs will fire the massive (5-10Ktons) torpedoes from tubes. (btw 5-10 Ktons is the mass of 1-2+ capital missile pods).

2)There is a larger classification of missile than capital - usually called "system defense" or "independant launcher" missiles - these are just too massive to be carried by SDs in bulk, and usually have larger warheads than capital missiles. Traditionally, these were single drive missiles and had extra time on the massive drives to engage targets outside the the target's range, protecting a fixed defensive point. Newer 3,4, and 5 drive defensive missiles are in this same class.

Technically, the Cataphract C in all it's mods would be classed as one of these missiles, as it is too large to fit in a conventional SD's tubes or magazines (and only 6 can fit in a pod).

So it's possible that the LDs could have tubes to fire the Cataphract Cs - but most likely they will just carry pods of them.

The graser head missiles were used at Galton, they were the flight of missiles detected with the bow shock wave. True many were destroyed, but enough did get through to cause damage and destruction. The main differences were the use of a Hasta drive system and the graser heads being smaller than those used at Oyster Bay. However that information would not get to Darius without spy-work, either human or stealth devices observing like the Argos network in The Short Victorious War.

The system defense version of Apollo has four drives I believe, rather than being an extended range single drive missile.