Why did everyone become dumb at the end of TEIF?

tlb wrote:From chapter 40 of Storm from the Shadows:

He watched the stupendous freighters getting underway. They weren't the largest freighters in the galaxy, by any stretch of the imagination, but they were still big, solid ships, all of them of at least four million tons, and they'd been carefully modified for their current role. Their cargo doors were considerably larger than usual, and the cargo holds behind those doors had been configured to provide secure nests for the roughly frigate-sized Ghost-class scout ships they concealed.

From chapter 48 of Storm from the Shadows:

The deployment maneuver took quite a while, but no one was in a tearing hurry, and no one wanted to risk a last-minute, potentially catastrophic accident. Wallaby had made her alpha translation thirty minutes ago, and she was still several hours away from the wormhole junction she'd ostensibly come here to transit. At this range, even a fully conventional ship Chameleon's size would almost certainly have been invisible even to Manticoran sensor arrays (assuming its skipper was smart enough not to bring up his wedge, at any rate). Not that anyone intended to take any chances.
Chameleon slid completely free of Wallaby, like an Old Earth shark sliding tail-first from its mother's womb, and the modified packs fell away as the jettisoning charges blew. They disappeared quickly into the Stygian gloom—this far out from the system primary, even the star gleam on Chameleon's own flanks was scarcely visible—and Østby continued to watch the visual display as the running light constellations bejeweling the clifflike immensity of the freighter's mammoth hull drew steadily away from them.

Yes; we all understand that the Ghost-class were inserted using freighters. But that doesn't imply that they lack hyper generators - there were good operational reasons not to use their hyper generators when sneaking into the Manticore system.

In fact SftS implies quite strongly that Ghost-class ship do have hyper generators; here where it's otherwise talking about how the Shark-class arrived

Storm from the Shadows - Ch. 51 wrote:All twenty of his ships were tractored together into two big, ungainly formations, nine hundred kilometers apart, as they floated with the closest thing possible to a zero velocity relative to one another and to the normal-space universe they'd left three months earlier.
"All right, people," Topolev said as calmly as he could, "let's do this."
"Yes, Sir," Coleman acknowledged, and passed the order to Captain Joshua Walsh, MANS Mako's captain.
Absolutely nothing seemed to happen for the next two or three minutes, but appearances were deceiving, and Topolev waited patiently, watching his own displays, as Task Force One of the Mesan Alignment Navy translated ever so slowly and gradually back into normal-space.
This maneuver had been tested against the Mesa System's sensor arrays by crews using the early Ghost-class ships even before the first of the Shark-class prototypes had ever been laid down, and Task Force One had practiced it over a hundred times once the mission had been okayed. Despite all that, Topolev still cherished a few reservations about the entire operation. Not about the abilities of his people, or the technical capabilities of his vessels, but about the timing.

(emphasis added)
Obviously to test the linked emergence from hyperspace the Ghost-class ships must have hyper generators of their own so they're able to translate "ever so slowly and gradually back into normal-space".

Well, the fact that David came right out and said they did is mostly what I'm basing my assertion that ghosts have hyperdrives.

Basically, when the time came they all flew across the hyperlimit and jumped out. At least according to that David Weber guy.

kzt wrote:Well, the fact that David came right out and said they did is mostly what I'm basing my assertion that ghosts have hyperdrives.

Basically, when the time came they all flew across the hyperlimit and jumped out. At least according to that David Weber guy.

Sorry for having doubted you and obviously the word of RFC is law; I just had not remembered the text that Jonathan_S quoted and did remember that they delivered by freighter. I do not recall whether their exits from Manticore or Yeltsin are ever described, so assumed that it was by freighter also. A pointer to what RFC said would be helpful.

But now we know this, why were specially modified freighters used at all? If the problem was fuel capacity, it would seem simpler to send a tanker with them and top them off before the transition back to normal space. Then have another tanker at a rendezvous point in hyperspace for the trip back. Was there another special freighter to carry them back, if the scouting used up almost all of their fuel supply? The only answer that I can think of for a part of these questions is that a single transition by the freighter with an obvious destination was preferred to multiple small, but unexplained, transitions. But that leads to another thought: because there is no wormhole near Yeltsin, we have one big unexplained transition (since the freighter will not go someplace where it can be examined)!

tlb wrote:Sorry for having doubted you and obviously the word of RFC is law; I just had not remembered the text that Jonathan_S quoted and did remember that they delivered by freighter. I do not recall whether their exits from Manticore or Yeltsin are ever described, so assumed that it was by freighter also.

But now we know this, why were specially modified freighters used at all? If the problem was fuel capacity, it would seem simpler to send a tanker with them and top them off before the transition back to normal space. Then have another tanker at a rendezvous point in hyperspace for the trip back. Was there another special freighter to carry them back, if the scouting used up almost all of their fuel supply? The only answer that I can think of for a part of these questions is that a single transition by the freighter with an obvious destination was preferred to multiple small, but unexplained, transitions. But that leads to another thought: because there is no wormhole near Yeltsin, we have one big unexplained transition (since the freighter will not go someplace where it can be examined)!

The freighters were used for stealth and to speed up the Oyster Bay time table. When the Sharks show up at Manticore they have to do their linked transition a light month out. IIRC they only reached a top speed of 0.2c so it would have taken them at least 150 days to travel from their emergence point to Manticore. However "the Wallaby had made her alpha translation thirty minutes ago, and she was still several hours away from the wormhole junction she'd ostensibly come here to transit." So the Ghosts were slipped in probably no more than 22 lightminute or so from the Junction, or less than 8 lighthours from Manticore.

That give the Ghosts all the time they need to sneak around identifying targets, programming and deploying the forward fire control relays, and generally get ready before the Sharks arrive to kick off the fight.

Mission of Honor - Ch 28 wrote:it also explained how Commodore Karol Østby’s and Commodore Milena Omelchenko’s scouting forces had been able to prowl undetected about both components of the Manticore Binary System for over two months, while Commodore Roderick Sung’s scouts and Admiral Jennifer Colenso’s strike ships had done exactly the same things at Yeltsin’s Star.

Manticore doesn't normally do physical close inspections of freighters that are merely transiting the wormhole - so there was little risk that the modifications made to Wallaby would even be seen.

However we're only shown the insertion of the Ghosts from Wallaby - of "MANS Chameleon and her consorts" (presumably those consorts include MANS Ghost and MANS Wraith; two other scouts Chameleon later rendezvous back with). But we don't know if all the Manticore-A and -B scouts were carried aboard Wallaby; though I'd assume all the scouts going to either would have used the freighter trick for insertion. However we don't know if the same trick was used at Yeltsin. Yes you're right that without a wormhole to transit you'd need another explanation for a freighter that showed up - it'd really need to transact some business there and thus be subject to inspection. But Yeltsin probably doesn't have quite the long range sensor setup that Manticore does - so the Ghosts might have been able to sneak in another way; we just aren't told.

Also, I put this together while digging through SftS and MoH and thought it might be useful to share:
The scouting contingents:
Manticore A - Task Group 1.3 CO Commodore Karol Østby aboard Chameleon; <unknown> ships
Inserted by Freighter Wallaby - Captain Rachel Jacobi
MANS Chameleon - Flagship; CO, Captain Eric Masters
MANS Ghost - CO, <unknown>
MANS Wraith - CO, <unknown>
???

Manticore B - Task Group 1.4 CO Commodore Milena Omelchenko aboard <unknown>; <unknown> ships
???

Yeltsin - Task Group 2.2 (6 ships) CO Commodore Roderick Sung aboard Apparition
1. MANS Apparition - Flagship; CO, <unknown>
2. <unknown>
3. <unknown>
4. <unknown>
5. <unknown>
6. <unknown>

And for completeness the strike groups of Sharks:
Manticore A - Admiral Topolev commanding Task Force One, and the 15 [1] ships of Task Group 1.1 from MANS Mako
Captain Joshua Walsh; CO of MANS Mako
Manticore-B Rear Admiral Lydia Papnikitas commanding the 6 ships of Task Group 1.2 from <unknown>
Yeltsin - Admiral Jennifer Colenso commanding Task Force Two, the 8 ships of Task Group 2.1 from <unknown>

[1]There's an off by one error here. SftS specifically says "All twenty of his ships" from "Task Force One"; but MoH has "Beyond the flagship’s hull, fourteen more ships of Task Group 1.1, kept perfect formation upon her, and the brilliant beacon of Manticore-A blazed before them." and "The six units of Task Group 1.2 were elsewhere, under Rear Admiral Lydia Papnikitas, closing on Manticore-B". Task Group One split into Task Groups 1.1 and 1.2, but Mako + 14 more is 15 ships in Task Group 1.1 and 6 in Task Group 1.2 give 21 ships. Should have been either "The fourteen ships of Task Group 1.1" or "thirteen more ships of Task Group 1.1".

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:Sorry for having doubted you and obviously the word of RFC is law; I just had not remembered the text that Jonathan_S quoted and did remember that they delivered by freighter. I do not recall whether their exits from Manticore or Yeltsin are ever described, so assumed that it was by freighter also.

But now we know this, why were specially modified freighters used at all? If the problem was fuel capacity, it would seem simpler to send a tanker with them and top them off before the transition back to normal space. Then have another tanker at a rendezvous point in hyperspace for the trip back. Was there another special freighter to carry them back, if the scouting used up almost all of their fuel supply? The only answer that I can think of for a part of these questions is that a single transition by the freighter with an obvious destination was preferred to multiple small, but unexplained, transitions. But that leads to another thought: because there is no wormhole near Yeltsin, we have one big unexplained transition (since the freighter will not go someplace where it can be examined)!

The freighters were used for stealth and to speed up the Oyster Bay time table. When the Sharks show up at Manticore they have to do their linked transition a light month out. IIRC they only reached a top speed of 0.2c so it would have taken them at least 150 days to travel from their emergence point to Manticore. However "the Wallaby had made her alpha translation thirty minutes ago, and she was still several hours away from the wormhole junction she'd ostensibly come here to transit." So the Ghosts were slipped in probably no more than 22 lightminute or so from the Junction, or less than 8 lighthours from Manticore.

That give the Ghosts all the time they need to sneak around identifying targets, programming and deploying the forward fire control relays, and generally get ready before the Sharks arrive to kick off the fight.

Mission of Honor - Ch 28 wrote:it also explained how Commodore Karol Østby’s and Commodore Milena Omelchenko’s scouting forces had been able to prowl undetected about both components of the Manticore Binary System for over two months, while Commodore Roderick Sung’s scouts and Admiral Jennifer Colenso’s strike ships had done exactly the same things at Yeltsin’s Star.

Manticore doesn't normally do physical close inspections of freighters that are merely transiting the wormhole - so there was little risk that the modifications made to Wallaby would even be seen.

However we're only shown the insertion of the Ghosts from Wallaby - of "MANS Chameleon and her consorts" (presumably those consorts include MANS Ghost and MANS Wraith; two other scouts Chameleon later rendezvous back with). But we don't know if all the Manticore-A and -B scouts were carried aboard Wallaby; though I'd assume all the scouts going to either would have used the freighter trick for insertion. However we don't know if the same trick was used at Yeltsin. Yes you're right that without a wormhole to transit you'd need another explanation for a freighter that showed up - it'd really need to transact some business there and thus be subject to inspection. But Yeltsin probably doesn't have quite the long range sensor setup that Manticore does - so the Ghosts might have been able to sneak in another way; we just aren't told.

The big follow on questions from this is what didn't the MAN also use freighters to drop off tons of Gtorps, programmed to swim around for weeks prior to attacking instead of using the Sharks on complicated multi month maneuvers? just a handful of freighters, originating from random systems, at random timing could drop more tops of munitions anonymously than 1 squadron of SD(p)s. Grayson would be a harder hit, but not Manticore, with all the system traffic and wormhole traffic.

Theemile wrote:The big follow on questions from this is what didn't the MAN also use freighters to drop off tons of Gtorps, programmed to swim around for weeks prior to attacking instead of using the Sharks on complicated multi month maneuvers? just a handful of freighters, originating from random systems, at random timing could drop more tops of munitions anonymously than 1 squadron of SD(p)s. Grayson would be a harder hit, but not Manticore, with all the system traffic and wormhole traffic.

And that is exactly what they did with the Silver Bullets at Beowulf. The Silver Bullets did have extra surveillance and processing power to find the Mycroft units; they also had extra endurance, but were still powered by plasma capacitors. The freighters that were used at Beowulf were not out of the ordinary, so could carry standard freight to Grayson or Manticore to explain their presence.

There was no reason to use use the spiders at all, other than the ghosts.

kzt wrote:There was no reason to use use the spiders at all, other than the ghosts.

If you wanted to use the missiles, yeah, the Sharks and the months long insertion was necessary to get the missile packs up to speed for the assault.

The graser torps on the other hand had months of endurance and could independently maneuver during that time, allowing them to attack from odd vectors without bein noticed or being able to be easily backtracked to a specific ship - and didn't require c fractional speeds to pull off their attacks without alerting the enemy. SO they easily could have been seeded by passing freighters without the need for the Sharks.

Besides, the Sharks could only carry a limited # of Gtorps- they were too large to be carried internally in the Sharks, so they had to be carried externally on racks and were limited to 2-3 per ship. Freighters which have holds which could swallow destroyers could easily carry dozens of Gtorps, and as discussed, dozens of freighters could be used over a period of months to insert them into a system.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:That leaves dancing outside the hyper limit and aggressive maneuvering would only create interception/ambush opportunities for the Alignment. As many recon drones as the GA can deploy, the numbers required start growing exponentially when they have to cover an expanding cone ahead of their fleet's base course. It's one of the reasons they moved so slowly into Galton orbit.

Microjumps. The fleet sits out there beyond the limit but every so often jumps somewhere else. Every bit of space hardware gets pecked to pieces. Sitting still doesn't make sense against an enemy with stealthy weapons--we already saw the Hasta at Beowulf, the GA knows about it.

I didn't post that but anyway ...

Microjumping can be just as dangerous. Sooner or later you are going to jump right into a Spider's web.

It also doesn't seem practical. The reason the fleet sits out there is to look over the prey and get bearings. If there is a lot of microjumping, then is there ever time to get bearings on enemy emplacements? I suppose data from drones can be received anywhere one jumps, but it seems jumps still have to be within a certain area to receive data in a timely fashion.

I still think that somehow the MA simply needs to figure out how to destroy the fleet train, then it is game over for the GA. And if the drones are eaten in the Darius system as I suspect they will be, then microjumping like frightened chickens isn't going to amount to much. At any rate, sooner or later there is going to be one jump too many.

BTW, is there nausea after each microjump?