Why did everyone become dumb at the end of TEIF?

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:
And if all of the naysayers are right that the Spiders can't possibly have been hatched this soon, then DW is setting the stage for a heaping helping of arachnophobia. It does seem ironic that the very experienced GA seemed to ignore the possibility that they exist. Or, like my spidery naysayers in the forum, Simoes may have given a timeline for their possible completion.

They exist now. WE know they exist. The appropriately cleared people in the MAN and MA know they exist.

Simoes knows that there was a rumor of some sort of black program involving some sort of unusual propulsion. Exactly how much Simoes knows is unclear. He's an expert on hyperspace physics, so he might actually know very little and made a lot of logical guesses. There is no evidence that he had any knowledge or suspicion that this was combined by some sort of plot-device-class super stealth system that violates thermodynamics.

He had never seen the actual hardware for his project, he absolutely had never seen any of the components of a spider drive. He has no certain knowledge that the project can produce viable HW, much less that it already had done this years ago, much less that the MAN was working on these monster ships.

So, some cleared people in the RMN etc knows that there is a rumor that there was some sort of project that produced some sort of drive that differed from the impeller.

They also know that the attack didn't require any such mystery technology. None of the missiles that launched in-ststem were detected prior to their drive lighting off.

And the details of the attack are not exactly clear, especially at the stations. Having dozens of gigaton-range fusions reactors blowing up inside the station while dozens of megaton range weapons go off outside is hard on sensors and recording equipment.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:
And if all of the naysayers are right that the Spiders can't possibly have been hatched this soon, then DW is setting the stage for a heaping helping of arachnophobia. It does seem ironic that the very experienced GA seemed to ignore the possibility that they exist. Or, like my spidery naysayers in the forum, Simoes may have given a timeline for their possible completion.

They exist now. WE know they exist. The appropriately cleared people in the MAN and MA know they exist.

Simoes knows that there was a rumor of some sort of black program involving some sort of unusual propulsion. Exactly how much Simoes knows is unclear. He's an expert on hyperspace physics, so he might actually know very little and made a lot of logical guesses. There is no evidence that he had any knowledge or suspicion that this was combined by some sort of plot-device-class super stealth system that violates thermodynamics.

He had never seen the actual hardware for his project, he absolutely had never seen any of the components of a spider drive. He has no certain knowledge that the project can produce viable HW, much less that it already had done this years ago, much less that the MAN was working on these monster ships.

So, some cleared people in the RMN etc knows that there is a rumor that there was some sort of project that produced some sort of drive that differed from the impeller.

They also know that the attack didn't require any such mystery technology. None of the missiles that launched in-ststem were detected prior to their drive lighting off.

And the details of the attack are not exactly clear, especially at the stations. Having dozens of gigaton-range fusions reactors blowing up inside the station while dozens of megaton range weapons go off outside is hard on sensors and recording equipment.

Theemile wrote:By Spider, Cthia means the Leonard Detweiler Class - While we know that there are at least 3 other classes of ships currently in use which use the Spider drive (and at least 1 munition).

cthia wrote:At any rate, the three classes of ships using the spider drive will be the Lenny Detweiler Class, the Shark Class, and the Ghost Class.

I didn't think the Shark Class actually has any tactical use, and it is to be replaced by the LDs. And the Ghost Class is actually a scout ship. Pretty much leaving only the LDs.

cthia wrote:Thanks. I suppose I should be careful about referring to the Lenny Detweilers that way. But Spider simply sounds more dramatic, scarier, more interesting, and just downright more dangerous. For stealth's sake, I suspect they will be as black as the darkest hue of space. Which means that if they have nicknames given to them by their crew as well as their GA counterparts, then I don't think The Black Widow sounds too far-fetched.

At any rate, the three classes of ships using the spider drive will be the Lenny Detweiler Class, the Shark Class, and the Ghost Class.

I didn't think the Shark Class actually has any tactical use, and it is to be replaced by the LDs. And the Ghost Class is actually a scout ship. Pretty much leaving only the LDs.

Although, in the Darius system, the Sharks could be used as bait, as a distraction, and/or as a misdirection.

Theemile wrote:The LDs are the 4th class - there is a class of BC sized Auxiliaries currently active used as Luxury yachts.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:The LDs are the 4th class - there is a class of BC sized Auxiliaries currently active used as Luxury yachts.

What do we know about the yachts? I assumed that they were wedge driven and streak drive equipped, because that would be the fastest in both normal and hyper space. We have seen both Anisimovna and Harahap in smaller yachts that were were wedge and streak drive equipped and I do not understand why the bigger ones would be different. The visits to Galton could not have been done in a spider drive ship.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks. I suppose I should be careful about referring to the Lenny Detweilers that way. But Spider simply sounds more dramatic, scarier, more interesting, and just downright more dangerous. For stealth's sake, I suspect they will be as black as the darkest hue of space. Which means that if they have nicknames given to them by their crew as well as their GA counterparts, then I don't think The Black Widow sounds too far-fetched.

At any rate, the three classes of ships using the spider drive will be the Lenny Detweiler Class, the Shark Class, and the Ghost Class.

I didn't think the Shark Class actually has any tactical use, and it is to be replaced by the LDs. And the Ghost Class is actually a scout ship. Pretty much leaving only the LDs.

Although, in the Darius system, the Sharks could be used as bait, as a distraction, and/or as a misdirection.

The LDs are the 4th class - there is a class of BC sized Auxiliaries currently active used as Luxury yachts.

And the Sharks were used in system strikes, I would class that a tactical use, even if they are going to be outdated and replaced by the LDs. The Ghosts are made for scouting and terminal guidance of munitions - a mobile Moriarity system writ small.

Modern tactics are based on shells of systems working in harmony. Bradleys, Apaches, humvees and Abrams all have weaknesses and limitations; used properly together, they are greater then their individual strengths. Same here.

cthia wrote:I suppose that that has to be considered as a tactical use. I didn't forget about that, but I was referring more to their use during the heat of battle. I suppose one can formulate some sort of plan that uses them in a tactical capacity even then; like the instruments whose bombardments will be used to open the battle in an enemy system. I suppose as well that their stealth could be as good as the LDs come time to pay the Piper, meaning they could actually maneuver deep in system.

But if anyone else wants to argue that the Sharks have more of a strategic use, like glorified ICBMs, I won't argue the point. As of their first use, IINM, they didn't even have a dedicated deployment system for the torps.

Theemile wrote:The LDs are the 4th class - there is a class of BC sized Auxiliaries currently active used as Luxury yachts.

tlb wrote:What do we know about the yachts? I assumed that they were wedge driven and streak drive equipped, because that would be the fastest in both normal and hyper space. We have seen both Anisimovna and Harahap in smaller yachts that were were wedge and streak drive equipped and I do not understand why the bigger ones would be different. The visits to Galton could not have been done in a spider drive ship.

Theemile wrote:The BC sized yacht I'm mentioning had a spider drive and streak drive - mentioned that it had a different shape than normal ships in the Honorverse because of the spider drive - really our first look at a spider drive ship (A. Detweiler was on his way from Mesa to Darius to see off the OB assault fleet).

Anisimovna and Harahap were on Streak dispatch boats with luxury accomodations - about 1/20th or so the size of the spider Yacht Detweiler had.

The "private yacht" was about the size of most navies' battlecruisers, and almost as heavily armed. Which didn't prevent it from being one of the most luxuriously appointed vessels in the galaxy . . . as well as one of the fastest. It had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else's ship could have managed it.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:The BC sized yacht I'm mentioning had a spider drive and streak drive - mentioned that it had a different shape than normal ships in the Honorverse because of the spider drive - really our first look at a spider drive ship (A. Detweiler was on his way from Mesa to Darius to see off the OB assault fleet).

Anisimovna and Harahap were on Streak dispatch boats with luxury accomodations - about 1/20th or so the size of the spider Yacht Detweiler had.

Please point me to the text for that, as I am having a lot of trouble believing there is a BC sized yacht with spider drive at a time when the Shark is the largest warship. I have looked at chapter 40 of Storm from the Shadows where the Detweilers watch the fleet heading out for Oyster Bay and at chapter 38 in Mission of Honor where they thank the crews after the operation and do not see any such mention. The most said about the yacht in MOH is the following:

The "private yacht" was about the size of most navies' battlecruisers, and almost as heavily armed. Which didn't prevent it from being one of the most luxuriously appointed vessels in the galaxy . . . as well as one of the fastest. It had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else's ship could have managed it.

Further point, you are saying that a spider drive yacht was used in the ride from Mesa and then on to the meeting in Mannerheim, at a time it was such a secret that Galton did not have a clue?