Why did everyone become dumb at the end of TEIF?

kzt wrote:It's pretty damn obvious that the RMN really doesn't believe in invisible spacecraft. Otherwise they would act like there was some sort of threat. And at both Beowulf and Galton they did not.

The fact that the gamma ray weapons were on spider torpedoes is something that absolutely nobody in the RMN knows or really suspects. They totally missed the hundreds of pods full of missiles, it hardly needed some ultra-sneaky invisible platform to reach firing range.

And the missiles that were being used by Galton had that same warhead. So the reason they have never seen the ultra sneaky spacecraft might be why we haven't seen the better documented Nazi flying saucers. They don't exist. And everyone they question and all of the data they have will confirm that.

It dos raise a whole lot of questions inside the MAN and associated orgs - Like what the hell were our leaders thinking when they deployed them and exposed them?

In addition to deciding to expose the Cataphract missiles when you'll be at SDM range in the OB attack. Uh, why?

I agree, the RMN is acting like there is no spider drive, yet in MOH right after the Yawata strike they were sure talking it up, if not by name. Also, Simioes knew about it and the Detweilers mentioned that the Manties were talking about it.
Regarding the graserhead missiles, it is stated that they were much less powerful than those used at Manticore. Surely that is a glaring discrepancy that would have been noticed.
In any case there is no mention of spider drives by the Alliance and no appearance or mention of Simeoles at all in this book. Kinda odd since his defection and his knowledge on the streak drive and of the spider drive would seem to have merited at least a cameo at Bolthole.
I think DW is trying to retcon out the Manty knowledge of the spider drive. Another possibility is maybe Eric Flint wrote a lot more of this book than we think and that's why the battle sequences/astrogation details seem a little off from DW's usual detail.

kzt wrote:It's pretty damn obvious that the RMN really doesn't believe in invisible spacecraft. Otherwise they would act like there was some sort of threat. And at both Beowulf and Galton they did not.

I certainly concur. The fact that they were complacent and irresponsible at Beowulf and Galton means that they will be just as complacent and irresponsible when attacking Darius. Complacency and irresponsibility are tactics that will go boom!

However, we cannot forget that the MA also has to convince Audrey O'Hanrahan that there are two different factions. The fact that Galton doesn't have access to critical technologies supports that. We don't know how many more VIP within the MA are being deceived other than Audrey in order to retain their loyalty. We know that the whole of Galton was deceived.

kzt wrote:The fact that the gamma ray weapons were on spider torpedoes is something that absolutely nobody in the RMN knows or really suspects. They totally missed the hundreds of pods full of missiles, it hardly needed some ultra-sneaky invisible platform to reach firing range.

And the missiles that were being used by Galton had that same warhead. So the reason they have never seen the ultra sneaky spacecraft might be why we haven't seen the better documented Nazi flying saucers. They don't exist. And everyone they question and all of the data they have will confirm that.

It dos raise a whole lot of questions inside the MAN and associated orgs - Like what the hell were our leaders thinking when they deployed them and exposed them?

In addition to deciding to expose the Cataphract missiles when you'll be at SDM range in the OB attack. Uh, why?

There could also be deception even within the hierarchies at Darius. What if various people within the MAN are also forcefed slop as a matter of OpSec. It isn't difficult to imagine that the proverbial need to know is on steroids in the MAN. Besides, the schtick they forcefed O'Hanrahan is now spiced up to be fed to the immigrants of Houdini.

jaydub69 wrote: I agree, the RMN is acting like there is no spider drive, yet in MOH right after the Yawata strike they were sure talking it up, if not by name. Also, Simioes knew about it and the Detweilers mentioned that the Manties were talking about it.
Regarding the graserhead missiles, it is stated that they were much less powerful than those used at Manticore. Surely that is a glaring discrepancy that would have been noticed.
In any case there is no mention of spider drives by the Alliance and no appearance or mention of Simeoles at all in this book. Kinda odd since his defection and his knowledge on the streak drive and of the spider drive would seem to have merited at least a cameo at Bolthole.
I think DW is trying to retcon out the Manty knowledge of the spider drive. Another possibility is maybe Eric Flint wrote a lot more of this book than we think and that's why the battle sequences/astrogation details seem a little off from DW's usual detail.

I think it might be simply psychological. One can believe that something might exist all one wants, but unless one sees this "god" of all technologies, one cannot be certain.

Seeing is believing, and the MA certainly doesn't want the scientists in the GA knowing for certain that the spider drive definitely exists. Certainty inspires a dangerous kind of motivation.

Besides, knowing the spider drive exists does not imply knowing its full strategic and tactical possibilities. The GA might think the spider has only a limited tactical application. Like, say, bombardment from afar.

I also think the retcon may have something to do with the author's vanity, and sales. He is building up the climactic clash with the MA to a feverish pitch. And, since TEiF was to be a collaboration, he wants to save the best for last, and the last for himself.

Kzt, it is ironic that the GA is committing the same crime that the SLN committed. That of ignoring the writing on the wall, and the writings obtained from your own sources.

I think it is the big bad gorilla simplex. It is impossible to look up in the sky for superior technologies when you are at the top of the mountain looking down on the enemy.

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[quote="cthia"However, we cannot forget that the MA also has to convince Audrey O'Hanrahan that there are two different factions. The fact that Galton doesn't have access to critical technologies supports that. We don't know how many more VIP within the MA are being deceived other than Audrey in order to retain their loyalty. We know that the whole of Galton was deceived. [/quote]

Both facts are correct and one leads to the other happening, but I doubt that using one to convince Audrey was intentional. Just take it to the logical conclusion: Audrey concludes there are two factions because the one at Galton is missing critical technologies... the critical technology that enabled the Yawata and Beowulf Strikes. That means this other Alignment is the one responsible for ~50 million deaths in sneak attacks. Whereas the one found at Galton, while despicable for its use of genetic slaves and militaristic society, seems to mostly have its hands cleans of atrocities.

Besides, knowing the spider drive exists does not imply knowing its full strategic and tactical possibilities. The GA might think the spider has only a limited tactical application. Like, say, bombardment from afar.

Which, as we've been speculating, might actually be very close to the truth.

I also think the retcon may have something to do with the author's vanity, and sales. He is building up the climactic clash with the MA to a feverish pitch. And, since TEiF was to be a collaboration, he wants to save the best for last, and the last for himself.

I don; t buy it. There was no reason to have the battle in this book, even if Galton had been introduced, which also wasn't necessary. If this were a pure Crown of Slaves book, the book could have been two thirds its length, focusing on Mesa, Earth, Torch, and maybe bring back Palmley Station. We get a lot more screen time with Ruth trying to break Jessica Miliken, we may even get some hints they're poking at the Torch Wormhole again,. I'd also love to hear more about what's happening in Maya and on Erewhon.

It does look like DW is trying to compress the number of books left, which is why Honor got such a large participation in this one. But I can't fathom what Galton's introduction (and removal) is building up to.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:However, we cannot forget that the MA also has to convince Audrey O'Hanrahan that there are two different factions. The fact that Galton doesn't have access to critical technologies supports that. We don't know how many more VIP within the MA are being deceived other than Audrey in order to retain their loyalty. We know that the whole of Galton was deceived.

Both facts are correct and one leads to the other happening, but I doubt that using one to convince Audrey was intentional. Just take it to the logical conclusion: Audrey concludes there are two factions because the one at Galton is missing critical technologies... the critical technology that enabled the Yawata and Beowulf Strikes. That means this other Alignment is the one responsible for ~50 million deaths in sneak attacks. Whereas the one found at Galton, while despicable for its use of genetic slaves and militaristic society, seems to mostly have its hands cleans of atrocities.

I disagree. First, and as I said, Audrey isn't the only person being duped. Not by a long shot. And I think you are giving too much credit to O'Hanrahan for being able to totally digest military tactics. You are attributing more capability to her than to the whole of the GA. Namely, why would Galton be exonerated from carrying out the Yawata Strike? Even the GA doesn't seem to be exactly sure what technologies were used.

cthia wrote:Besides, knowing the spider drive exists does not imply knowing its full strategic and tactical possibilities. The GA might think the spider has only a limited tactical application. Like, say, bombardment from afar.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Which, as we've been speculating, might actually be very close to the truth.

If the MA can get you - someone with inside information being a reader - to swallow that misnomer hook, line and sinker, then the unsuspecting GA is burnt toast.

cthia wrote:I also think the retcon may have something to do with the author's vanity, and sales. He is building up the climactic clash with the MA to a feverish pitch. And, since TEiF was to be a collaboration, he wants to save the best for last, and the last for himself.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don; t buy it. There was no reason to have the battle in this book, even if Galton had been introduced, which also wasn't necessary. If this were a pure Crown of Slaves book, the book could have been two thirds its length, focusing on Mesa, Earth, Torch, and maybe bring back Palmley Station. We get a lot more screen time with Ruth trying to break Jessica Miliken, we may even get some hints they're poking at the Torch Wormhole again,. I'd also love to hear more about what's happening in Maya and on Erewhon.

It does look like DW is trying to compress the number of books left, which is why Honor got such a large participation in this one. But I can't fathom what Galton's introduction (and removal) is building up to.

Huh? How can you say there was no need for the battle. For one, DW had to have a battle scene. It is the main ingredient of space opera. Not to mention that at least one of his fans would have been pissed. But you do realize that there was only one battle scene? At any rate, there was the need to test some of their technologies against GA tech. And, if you are intending to throw a fight (have Galton take a dive) you can't make the fight look realistic if you don't, at the very least, throw a few punches.

Oops, I almost forgot. The battle also caused the whole of the MAN to see for certain that the GA is out to get them. It is laying the groundwork to erase questioning the order to KEW! Revenge will be served cold.

Another reason the author had to insert Galton is because of something that I have been ranting on about in the Attacking Darius thread.

The author had to give each participant some experience against each other in battle. It is bad enough, but if Honor had hypered into Darius with the same posture, her undies would have been soiled and shredded!

And as I mentioned upstream, psychologically, any conflicting emotions that may be contained in the constitution of any of the MAN officers to carry out KEW strikes is now frozen in the coldness of revenge and self-survival.

For everyone concerned, Galton creates enough reasonable doubt. It is a tactic used by many a lawyer to get their client off. The MA is smart.

cthia wrote:Huh? How can you say there was no need for the battle. For one, DW had to have a battle scene. It is the main ingredient of space opera. Not to mention that at least one of his fans would have been pissed.

But you can only know that there is a battle scene or there isn't one after you've read the book. By which point, the money is spent. There were also lots of previous novels that had no battle scene and it was mostly politics. Yes, I know lots of people who thought those were harder to read because they didn't have the main ingredient that they wanted.

So I agree that it might have hurt sales if such action hadn't happened. I hadn't considered that when I said he didn't have to include it, because I was mostly considering what's required to make the story move forward, not those pesky things like commercial success... but to compensate for the lack of a major Honor battle, we could have had two or more smaller actions by the RTN and the MARSN. And as we speculated before the book came out, the SLN could be dealing with its own petty warlords, like Theisman had to after the conclusion of the First Haven-Manticore War.

PS: battles are the ingredient of military sci-fi, not necessarily of space opera. Space opera can do just fine without a single shot being fired.

But you do realize that there was only one battle scene? At any rate, there was the need to test some of their technologies against GA tech. And, if you are intending to throw a fight (have Galton take a dive) you can't make the fight look realistic if you don't, at the very least, throw a few punches.

I agree, though there are two problems with that. First, it's that the MAN's best tech was not used. Gail mentioned that Galton (System Alpha) wasn't given access to the Ninurta missiles, for example, besides of course the lack of spiders. There's still going to be a large gap in what the MAN knows about the operation of their own equipment because it hasn't been used in military action. Though it might be that it isn't intended to be used like that in the first place.

Second, I was making a point outside the Universe. There wasn't a need to introduce Galton in the first place to advance the story line.

Oops, I almost forgot. The battle also caused the whole of the MAN to see for certain that the GA is out to get them. It is laying the groundwork to erase questioning the order to KEW! Revenge will be served cold.

Eh? At what point was the MAN officer corps not already convinced of that?

Not that the MAN personnel is going to ever know the actual truth, but if they did, they'd actually see that Honor was far more lenient with Galton than they had any right to expect, given all the dirty tricks they pulled during the battle, after it as well as what is alleged to them before the battle. That would run counter to the purposes of the MAlign leadership. And yet... the officers do need to learn what happened in Galton in detail, to study the tactics.

Plus, the MAN personnel will know without a doubt that Galton was left out to take the fall. They will know that the Alignment had better technology and it wasn't offered to Galton to aid in their defence.. They'd also know that Galton was innocent of the massive civilian casualty events. So someone with two neurons and not already drinking the kool-aid should be able to tell that the GA's actions were honourable and it's their own side that is out to get everyone.

jaydub69 wrote:Another possibility is maybe Eric Flint wrote a lot more of this book than we think and that's why the battle sequences/astrogation details seem a little off from DW's usual detail.

That's what seems to me the most likely. The whole battle doesn't feel like DWs writing to me. Not enough attention to detail, many things that don't fit with what we already know.

cthia wrote:I certainly concur. The fact that they were complacent and irresponsible at Beowulf and Galton means that they will be just as complacent and irresponsible when attacking Darius. Complacency and irresponsibility are tactics that will go boom!

I wouldn't say they were complacent and irresponsible at Beowulf.

Note that all the important things were not from the SLN attack, but from the MAlign attack that happened under the cover of the Sollie attack.

They did anticipate the stealth missiles and stop most of them.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

jaydub69 wrote:Another possibility is maybe Eric Flint wrote a lot more of this book than we think and that's why the battle sequences/astrogation details seem a little off from DW's usual detail.

That's what seems to me the most likely. The whole battle doesn't feel like DWs writing to me. Not enough attention to detail, many things that don't fit with what we already know.

I really can't imagine that Eric Flint would want to risk tainting and doing an injustice to David's battle scenes, or that David would even want anyone messing around in that playground.

If you are a master at your craft, you don't let an amateur build your house.

Loren Pechtel wrote:They did anticipate the stealth missiles and stop most of them.

That's the proof in the pudding isn't it? Grand Fleet lost about 20 capital ships in order to take the only star system fortified more heavily than Manticore's own Binary System. What's more, only one-third of those losses were actually to stealth weapons; the other two-thirds died because they advanced into close range of conventional missiles disguised as civilian cargo.

The GA's losses at Galton only seems "bad" because they've been walking all over the SLN with relative impunity for two years. If you go back to the wars between Haven and Manticore, it's barely a drop in the bucket. EG: White Haven lost about ten wallers in a minor engagement in 1906 which he retreated from. Amos Parnell lost over forty wallers in a major engagement which he also retreated from. Lester Tourville lost nineteen capital ships retreating from Sidemore. Between them, both sides lost around four hundred capital ships at First Manticore.

The static deployment beyond the hyper limit did exactly what it was meant to; it forced the Alignment to throw away its stealth advantages and come into a zone dominated by GA forces, utterly saturated by recon drones with FTL communications. Sun Tzu would be very proud.

We've already seen what happens when someone charges across the hyper limit into a fortified system. Tourville got his ass kicked and Filareta screwed himself so thoroughly he was going to surrender without firing a shot.

That leaves dancing outside the hyper limit and aggressive maneuvering would only create interception/ambush opportunities for the Alignment. As many recon drones as the GA can deploy, the numbers required start growing exponentially when they have to cover an expanding cone ahead of their fleet's base course. It's one of the reasons they moved so slowly into Galton orbit.

Or the final option is the one advocated by Captain Jaruwalski: a massive salvo launched as soon as they were out of hyper. This was ruled out because the GA refused to contemplate civilian casualties on the scale they had suffered. Would it have been better to do it that way?

Assuming they had done that and managed to not hit any civilian targets, what happens next? They eventually come in to Galton orbit, at which point those camouflaged Cataphracts potentially come into play anyway, unless Galton's command structure is so eviscerated that nobody is left to order it.

We know that final strike killed more ships than the first graserhead attack. It's hard to say how it would have worked out if it was the first and only attack Galton made. The GA crews might have reacted more slowly without having endured incoming fire, but they would also have a few more ships providing anti-missile defenses.

If there's a better way to crack a nut like Galton, I don't see it. The same technique should work on Darius if the GA ever finds it. They'll sit out there and force any spiders to sally forth or rot unused in their spider holes as Darius' orbital infrastructure dies to long-range bombardment.