She shot him with her finger

ThinksMarkedly wrote: There is no evidence that fooling treecats is possible. There's one case in TEiF that raises eyebrows and we'll need to discuss, but it's not outright fooling the treecats.

BTW, that case is Audrey O'Hanrahan.

When fooling a lie detector, one has to be able to perfectly control ones emotions. The machine is detecting ones changes in certain biological functions that are affected by emotions.

There are ways to beat the lie detector here on Earth.

• Change your heart rate
  
• breathing rate
  
• blood pressure and
  
• sweat level

when answering control questions.

Control questions are questions whose answer is known. For instance, "What is your name?" The polygraph operator will use the control questions to establish a baseline graph. But one can manipulate the control questions by skewing the readings. The readings can be skewed by doing certain things like biting your tongue, digging your nails into your skin. Thinking of something traumatic or frightening. This is why they ask you to remain absolutely still during these tests.

Uh... you do realise that fooling polygraphs is a thing of fiction, right? It's a nice plot in storylines, but in reality it doesn't happen. No one is that good in controlling their emotions and physiological reactions.

I can grant you that, in a work of fiction, this could be allowed. For example, the Star Lines of the MAlign may have this capability built-in, particularly the ones used for intelligence agents. Whether others like O'Hanrahan have it too, is unknown.

That's a moot point in her case, though. First, because even if she had the capability, she wouldn't use it. She's a true believer in the beneficence of "her Alignment," so she wouldn't dissimulate and wouldn't be good at it even if she did if she thought they were actually malignant. Maybe her handler and her bodyguard (Michael Anderle) are such and that could explain why he passed vetting.

Second, what you said:

However, I imagine that a Cat can not be so easily fooled, because a Cat can actually sense the actual emotions, rather than simply the effect of such emotions.

Right. And it's going to be very difficult for the MAlign to devise a technique without any useful experimental data. The only data they have is when an agent is captured, so it comes in dribs and drabs. They've only recently learned that treecats are intelligent sentients and, assuming they've connected the dots between that and the agents being captured, they'd only just have begun the genetic tinkering. There hasn't been time. That means it can't explain Michael Anderle either; he has to be a true believer like Audrey, though he may be more "pragmatic" ins some ways.

And they can't keep sending agents now that do get captured, because they're supposed to no longer exist. The GA knows they still do, but we don't know that the MAlign knows the GA does. Even if they do, they may not want to confirm it even further.

But there is one way to guarantee 100% effectiveness of fooling any lie detector no matter how good it is. Even the Cats ...

And that, is when the source actually believes the lie. It is the source's truth that matters. It is the same with Audrey O'hanrahan. She trusts her Alignment unconditionally and without any reservations. Her truth is what her Alignment feeds her. The Alignment is aware of that as well. Thus, even the Treecats can't discern between real truth and indoctrination.

Switching gears. Since I believe that the effect of certain emotions on the body change or affect the readings, I might tend to believe that total control over ones emotions might actually fool the cats as well.

Cool under pressure.

Quite agreed. That's how we must explain Audrey's continued presence of both Honor and Nimitz, not to mention the other treecat bodyguards that the top admirals would have, and how she lived to tell the tale. One might assume that Michael Anderle would have had much less contact with the treecats, but even that that wasn't zero because he escorted Audrey to any and all audiences with Honor and stood outside. Nimitz and she would have had lots of opportunities to sample him.

Still, that means Audrey, like you said, "unconditionally and without reservation" believes. That's quite contrary to what we know of her personality...

But on-topic to this thread... a synthetic body would have absolutely no betraying emissions that weren't part of its design. It might stand out as a sore thumb if others around don't have the same, so the easiest way for the MAlign agents to use this technique would be for everyone to be like that. Ok, not the easiest...

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Uh... you do realise that fooling polygraphs is a thing of fiction, right? It's a nice plot in storylines, but in reality it doesn't happen. No one is that good in controlling their emotions and physiological reactions.

What's vastly more likely is the polygraph process making you nervous enough to simply fail even when telling the truth.

There's a reason polygraph results generally aren't admissible in a court of law; they're not reliable enough.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Uh... you do realise that fooling polygraphs is a thing of fiction, right? It's a nice plot in storylines, but in reality it doesn't happen. No one is that good in controlling their emotions and physiological reactions.

You are misinformed about that. It is actually a thing, and quite possible. I can imagine that spies are trained to be proficient at thwarting them. A simple Google search will take you to many reputable sources telling you exactly what I just said. In fact, I enjoyed an episode of the Steve Wilkos show where the operator accused the suspect of doing just that ...

"Our test is inconclusive because the subject consistently used techniques to fool the detector. Even though we consistently warned him. But we are also trained to recognize the techniques. Regardless, the test is inconclusive."

The wife did not get closure as to whether her husband was guilty of infidelity.

It also happens naturally. Some people would be psyched out at the very fact that it is a lie detector "test." Tests in general simply freak some people out. They can't remain calm. Some people freak out when taking tests at school even though they know the material quite well. Honor is one of those people when it comes to math.

At any rate, the ability to defeat the polygraph is self-documenting, by the very same reason that polygraph results are legally inadmissible in court.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I can grant you that, in a work of fiction, this could be allowed. For example, the Star Lines of the MAlign may have this capability built-in, particularly the ones used for intelligence agents. Whether others like O'Hanrahan have it too, is unknown.

Which can only be achieved controlling ones emotions. Or, by "controlling ones own orbitals." LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's a moot point in her case, though. First, because even if she had the capability, she wouldn't use it. She's a true believer in the beneficence of "her Alignment," so she wouldn't dissimulate and wouldn't be good at it even if she did if she thought they were actually malignant. Maybe her handler and her bodyguard (Michael Anderle) are such and that could explain why he passed vetting.

Agreed here, and I stated as much upstream. Essentially, that same thing which makes her a powerful subject for the MA also makes her a potential risk. The MA is dealing a house of cards with O'Hanrahan's mind. But if the MA plays each hand correctly, then she is a formidable weapon against the Treecats. Remember, she has built up a reputation in the Galaxy of being fair and impartial, because it happens to be true. She is trusted, she has a reputation of being professional. Even Honor respects her. So does Cathy Montaigne. Like Beth and Honor, and The MBS as a whole, they have all cultivated such a valuable reputation that has served them all in good stead. One can not create a better Audrey O'Hanrahan artificially. True faith will always be better than something manufactured. That attribute cannot be engineered as good as what is found in Audrey.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Second, what you said:

cthia wrote:However, I imagine that a Cat can not be so easily fooled, because a Cat can actually sense the actual emotions, rather than simply the effect of such emotions.

Right. And it's going to be very difficult for the MAlign to devise a technique without any useful experimental data. The only data they have is when an agent is captured, so it comes in dribs and drabs. They've only recently learned that treecats are intelligent sentients and, assuming they've connected the dots between that and the agents being captured, they'd only just have begun the genetic tinkering. There hasn't been time. That means it can't explain Michael Anderle either; he has to be a true believer like Audrey, though he may be more "pragmatic" ins some ways.

Anderle is an interesting case for certain, but how deeply is he ever questioned?

However, I am not so certain it will be difficult to devise a test. Just assume that emotions are the key. Even if they do not realize that emotions are what a cat can actually read. Emotions are what the polygraph measures. It should be obvious to an Alpha that emotions must be the missing link. Since animals normally have the ability to sense certain emotions. Like fear. And aggression.

I agree that it would be difficult for the MA to "test" their product in any event. But it would only take one subject to do so. And the test subject should be "none too subtle" about it.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And they can't keep sending agents now that do get captured, because they're supposed to no longer exist. The GA knows they still do, but we don't know that the MAlign knows the GA does. Even if they do, they may not want to confirm it even further.

True. But as I have stated several times upstream, that may not continue to hold true towards the "end game." A time when their tech should be used with reckless abandon. They may want a short victorious war.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But there is one way to guarantee 100% effectiveness of fooling any lie detector no matter how good it is. Even the Cats ...

And that, is when the source actually believes the lie. It is the source's truth that matters. It is the same with Audrey O'Hanrahan. She trusts her Alignment unconditionally and without any reservations. Her truth is what her Alignment feeds her. The Alignment is aware of that as well. Thus, even the Treecats can't discern between real truth and indoctrination.

Switching gears. Since I believe that the effect of certain emotions on the body change or affect the readings, I might tend to believe that total control over ones emotions might actually fool the cats as well.

Cool under pressure.

Quite agreed. That's how we must explain Audrey's continued presence of both Honor and Nimitz, not to mention the other treecat bodyguards that the top admirals would have, and how she lived to tell the tale. One might assume that Michael Anderle would have had much less contact with the treecats, but even that that wasn't zero because he escorted Audrey to any and all audiences with Honor and stood outside. Nimitz and she would have had lots of opportunities to sample him.

Still, that means Audrey, like you said, "unconditionally and without reservation" believes. That's quite contrary to what we know of her personality...

I don't think that is being fair to Audrey. Nor do I think it is accurate. Audrey believes in her cause. She has "faith." She is simply the type of person who has to believe in her cause. Like Honor. Honor had to know if Beth was worth her devotion. Because, like Audrey, Honor is in it all the way. The two of them are Uncompromising. The both of them can only be completely and utterly divested.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But on-topic to this thread... a synthetic body would have absolutely no betraying emissions that weren't part of its design. It might stand out as a sore thumb if others around don't have the same, so the easiest way for the MAlign agents to use this technique would be for everyone to be like that. Ok, not the easiest...

A synthetic brain can have no emissions because it can have no emotions. A computer can not be conscious. No consciousness, no emotions. There is no life.

It always comes back to something that I have stated repeatedly on this forum ad nauseum ...

Man thinks that he can create life by creating consciousness and true intelligence.

But man doesn't think that an entity long ago could have beat him to it.

cthia wrote:It always comes back to something that I have stated repeatedly on this forum ad nauseum ...

Man thinks that he can create life by creating consciousness and true intelligence.

But man doesn't think that an entity long ago could have beat him to it.

When you say "man" you obviously do not mean all people, since you are a person (who would be included if you meant all men) and we all know that you do not accept that those statements describe you. So what we have are a series of less general statements:

1) Some people think that consciousness can be created.

2) Some people think that true intelligence can be created.

3) Some people think that if steps 1 and 2 are achieved and combined then life will be created.

However some people don't think that an entity long ago could have done it.


Well some people believe all sorts of strange things.

Personally I do not believe consciousness can be created in the lab (I am not sure how to interpret "true" intelligence); so I do not think it can be combined with anything.

But I would be more concerned about recent reports of taking frog cells and building self-replicating nano-robots.

There might actually be a method the MA can use to test the effectiveness of ways to beat a Treecat. Success would depend on several things.

A. Whether ones total control over ones emotions can twart a Cat.

B. Whether the MA's own nanites work in tandem with emotions.


In other words, the MA may be able to test the results of any attempts to fool the Cats against their own tech. The steps of a rough draft ...

1. Condition Subject A with nanites to prevent divulging secrets when asked specific questions.

2. Apply the ability to control ones emotions.

If the test subject can be asked critical questions without it triggering the nanites. Success?!


Another avenue to investigate might be whether the MA can force a "control question" to invade the thought processes of test subject upon asking him certain questions. "I do not know." Spoken with total control over emotions, or answered with a test question invading the thought process might work. Because the subject would actually be responding to the control question which now invades his thought processes. I would also imagine that the added control over dopamine levels might work as well.

cthia wrote:There might actually be a method the MA can use to test the effectiveness of ways to beat a Treecat. Success would depend on several things.

A. Whether ones total control over ones emotions can twart a Cat.

B. Whether the MA's own nanites work in tandem with emotions.


In other words, the MA may be able to test the results of any attempts to fool the Cats against their own tech. The steps of a rough draft ...

1. Condition Subject A with nanites to prevent divulging secrets when asked specific questions.

2. Apply the ability to control ones emotions.

If the test subject can be asked critical questions without it triggering the nanites. Success?!


Another avenue to investigate might be whether the MA can force a "control question" to invade the thought processes of test subject upon asking him certain questions. "I do not know." Spoken with total control over emotions, or answered with a test question invading the thought process might work. Because the subject would actually be responding to the control question which now invades his thought processes. I would also imagine that the added control over dopamine levels might work as well.

We know the nanites don't work with emotions, hence the "oh no, I can't believe I'm doing this, what is going on" internal struggle the Honor and the Treecats pick up.

The nanovirus is just triggered muscle memory. It can't do anything much more complex than type the word "seven" into the left keyboard, or pull (your) pistol and spray rounds "that-a-way" when the trigger is sensed.

The assassination attempt of Berry shows how little the nanites do. The gentleman in question was pulled off the street and conditioned for several weeks, drugged, and had the nanites planted- all to do the assassination, and the treecats still could sense he was all screwed up in advance.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:There might actually be a method the MA can use to test the effectiveness of ways to beat a Treecat. Success would depend on several things.

A. Whether ones total control over ones emotions can twart a Cat.

B. Whether the MA's own nanites work in tandem with emotions.


In other words, the MA may be able to test the results of any attempts to fool the Cats against their own tech. The steps of a rough draft ...

1. Condition Subject A with nanites to prevent divulging secrets when asked specific questions.

2. Apply the ability to control ones emotions.

If the test subject can be asked critical questions without it triggering the nanites. Success?!


Another avenue to investigate might be whether the MA can force a "control question" to invade the thought processes of test subject upon asking him certain questions. "I do not know." Spoken with total control over emotions, or answered with a test question invading the thought process might work. Because the subject would actually be responding to the control question which now invades his thought processes. I would also imagine that the added control over dopamine levels might work as well.

We know the nanites don't work with emotions, hence the "oh no, I can't believe I'm doing this, what is going on" internal struggle the Honor and the Treecats pick up.

The nanovirus is just triggered muscle memory. It can't do anything much more complex than type the word "seven" into the left keyboard, or pull (your) pistol and spray rounds "that-a-way" when the trigger is sensed.

The assassination attempt of Berry shows how little the nanites do. The gentleman in question was pulled off the street and conditioned for several weeks, drugged, and had the nanites planted- all to do the assassination, and the treecats still could sense he was all screwed up in advance.

You are talking about compulsion. I am specifically talking about the suicide protocols, which may function differently based on a different set of input / stimuli.

cthia wrote:"Our test is inconclusive because the subject consistently used techniques to fool the detector. Even though we consistently warned him. But we are also trained to recognize the techniques. Regardless, the test is inconclusive."

The wife did not get closure as to whether her husband was guilty of infidelity.

That means he did not fool the polygraph. The result was clearly inconclusive. All you've shown is that there are techniques to not incriminate oneself, but not techniques to absolve oneself of blame. That's quite different.

Like the case of a synthetic body, that would stand out. There's no doubt that the result is not a truth.

It also happens naturally. Some people would be psyched out at the very fact that it is a lie detector "test." Tests in general simply freak some people out. They can't remain calm. Some people freak out when taking tests at school even though they know the material quite well. Honor is one of those people when it comes to math.

At any rate, the ability to defeat the polygraph is self-documenting, by the very same reason that polygraph results are legally inadmissible in court.

Fair enough.

But unlike what we're talking about with polygraphs, with people being nervous and therefore screwing up the results or there even being ways to force incorrect conclusions, the treecat lie detection works just fine and reliably. That probably happens in the majority of cases because the subject doesn't know he's being interrogated in the first place, but we've seen treecat-mediated interrogations taking place. Two come to mind, both involving the same treecat: Harahap's original interrogation, when Clear Killer adopted him and became Plays with Fire, and when the duo went to interrogate the corrupt people aboard the slaver station in TEiF. In the first, Harahap did not know that treecats could be used as lie detectors; in the second, he deliberately exaggerated the treecat's capabilities to put the subjects on edge.

Anderle is an interesting case for certain, but how deeply is he ever questioned?

I don't think he was deeply questioned. But he came into contact with treecats often enough that if he were trying to dissimulate, that would have been picked up. If you're told "don't think about your password," you will be thinking of nothing but your password... So treecats would have picked up at a minimum that he was hiding something that he thought was important and may even detect that it's something that he was hiding from Audrey. That would warrant further attention.

Not an interrogation, because Audrey wouldn't appreciate that without hard evidence, but surreptitious information collection.

However, I am not so certain it will be difficult to devise a test. Just assume that emotions are the key. Even if they do not realize that emotions are what a cat can actually read. Emotions are what the polygraph measures. It should be obvious to an Alpha that emotions must be the missing link. Since animals normally have the ability to sense certain emotions. Like fear. And aggression.

Devising a test is not difficult. The problem is the feedback loop.

It takes way too long to gather data and react to it. It also comes in a trickle, because the MAlign can't subject a hundred different variations of treecat-fooling techniques to treecats and find out which ones work best. It comes contaminated by other data, since agents may not exposed to the treecats, or they may be intercepted by other means. Data may also be lost on the way, since the information pipeline may break down. And whatever data they get, they get as a binary pass or fail, whereas in reality it's a gradation.

Plus, they can't overuse that information pipeline, because it leads directly to Darius. If the intelligence services clue in to it, they'll monitor it and track it. Not to mention that if the intelligence services clue in, they can use counter-intelligence techniques and feed disinformation into the pipeline.

So in conclusion, they could do it, but not in the timeline that we know they're going to be forced to.

True. But as I have stated several times upstream, that may not continue to hold true towards the "end game." A time when their tech should be used with reckless abandon. They may want a short victorious war.

Because that worked well for the peeps?

Benjamin Detweiler thinks it will take more than a century until the plan unfolds. He thinks that he won't be alive to see it and he should have a lifespan, even without prolong, of at least another 150 years. In that time, they could advance the technique, if not perfect it.

But I don't think they'll be operating under their preferred timetables. The conclusion will be forced on them.

A synthetic brain can have no emissions because it can have no emotions. A computer can not be conscious. No consciousness, no emotions. There is no life.

That's not a given. In our reality, it's neither proven nor disproven. It may be against the religious precepts of any number of religions, but religions are not based on science, but faith. That means their precepts are accepted on face value, not based on experimental data. What you or I think the results of any such experiment will be if attempted is not the point. And whether we think experiments should even be attempted is neither the point...

In a work of fiction, the rules are suspended and it's only what the author says it is. If the author says it can happen, then it can.

Anyway, I said the synthetic body will betray no emissions that it wasn't designed to do. There's no reason it can't be designed to emit exactly what a treecat can pick up. We know there's a distributed organ in the treecat body that is a transmitter and receiver, so it stands to reason there's something being transmitted. We also know that humans can both transmit and receive that, somehow. So even if this synthetic body has no soul, it may still be able to pass muster and emit all the necessary noise that would make it be accepted as a real person.

Or like I said, if there were enough of those "oddities" in the population, one couldn't rule them all out as MAlign agents.

Man thinks that he can create life by creating consciousness and true intelligence.

But man doesn't think that an entity long ago could have beat him to it.

Whether you're right or not, from those statements we can't conclude that man can't repeat the feat.

Theemile wrote:We know the nanites don't work with emotions, hence the "oh no, I can't believe I'm doing this, what is going on" internal struggle the Honor and the Treecats pick up.

The nanovirus is just triggered muscle memory. It can't do anything much more complex than type the word "seven" into the left keyboard, or pull (your) pistol and spray rounds "that-a-way" when the trigger is sensed.

The assassination attempt of Berry shows how little the nanites do. The gentleman in question was pulled off the street and conditioned for several weeks, drugged, and had the nanites planted- all to do the assassination, and the treecats still could sense he was all screwed up in advance.

We know those nanites can't work with emotions. But there's no reason why further R&D into them couldn't make them work, especially if the subject is not fighting the nanites, but cooperating. A MAlign agent could be injected with those special nanites, which he/she calls upon when facing interrogation and helps them defeat the interrogators' detection apparatuses. Or, better yet, unless a passphrase-thought is given prior to the subject being brought up, they automatically kick in and help the agent.

The problem, as I said in my reply to cthia, is not the ability of the MAlign geneticists and nanite researchers to create such a thing. It's the feedback loop to confirm it works against treecats: they don't have a good sample of treecats (or any treecat at all, for all we know) to test the solutions with. Any such testing involves inserting an agent, which takes time, hoping the agent comes into contact with a treecat in a situation where the treecat would flag the agent as being a liar, then reporting back. You can't insert them in to the general Sphinx population because people generally lie and treecats know that. They wouldn't automatically flag a liar because of a white lie. And they're reclusive, so they won't automatically interact with every stranger who comes to Sphinx and asks to be tested for lying.

There may be a better way of going about this, but the only one I can think of is to get data by being struck down by that very treecat. So the MAlign handlers are basically getting no data back, until some agent reports "it worked." And as I said in my other reply, there are other reasons why this data may not come, so it's contaminated. An agent that would have passed the lie detection may be intercepted on the insertion, may miss the appointment because they had stomachache that day, may not be able to report back because the information pipeline was brought down, or the courier that was bringing that information was itself intercepted, etc.

Mental control techniques do work.
Indian fakers, martial arts experts, even Western meditation gurus can mentally control their blood pressure and pulse. You can check it yourself in a simplistic way with a home BP kit. Take your BP and pulse, then think about stressful things (your inlaws, boss, a teacher who wronged you decades ago). Repeat the test when you are wound up, higher results.
There are techniques taught to executives to control stress, and chronic pain sufferers to control the pain. I can attest to their effectiveness in both.
Doubtful that they could be focused enough for individual treecat questions, but they could mute overall responses.
Cthia, as usual your high intelligence is overridden by your faith. An artificial intelligence could well have emotions if they were designed into it, but not revealing them could also be designed into it.