She shot him with her finger

Don't forget the Ghola that show up in the Dune series. The first one we encounter is Duncan Idaho. His memories and much of his personality is reconstituted in a cloned form of himself. There are problems what that - with the entire Ghola process- as it ends up sounding like uploading software (memories) to an "empty" hard drive which is (apparently usually) a clone of the original person. But a Ghola isn't truly that person and it seems to be an incomplete overlay of memories onto a "generic" brain/mind which is force grown along with the new body into what looks like an adult human.
Herbert wasn't all the specific but what ends up happening - with Duncan- is that the interactions with Jessica, and of course Spice, flips the switch between memories transferred and the activation of the existing original personality of Duncan in the new body- something it's makers had been striving for but not previously achieved. He was just a much a breakthrough as was Paul's awakening as the Kwisatz Haderach (without the God effect). Its back to the question of can a clone of a person or a completely differnt person receive a transfer of "memory/mind into it's brain and be the former person. Just like the idea that a clone has the potential to develop into the same kind of person as the original (with any particular trait/gift/talent) but at the moment the challange would be to then replicate (probably in the correct order and circumstances) how they grew up, learned things and were affected/motivated by all sorts of things that led them to what they became.

cthia wrote:Transforming it into what would be called the Abdullah oblongdata.

tlb wrote:Is "Abdullah oblongdata" a joke that I do not get? I do see the "data" pun, but why "Abdullah" instead of "medulla" (as in medulla oblongata)?

Unless it is possible to move the consciousness (wherever that resides), then whatever results will be a thing that might have your memories; but it will not be you. The same as the organic copies of people made by the creature, that seemed to be the real person; but were not, because the person was dead. Your consciousness will die with your organic brain, so why worry about schizophrenia?

Even if consciousness could be copied, the one that is you is that one which is left behind (not the one in the cybernetic replacement, however that one will think he is you; so he won't care).

Generally theories should have some data to support them, otherwise they are just speculations or harebrained ideas.

cthia wrote:A very singed joke. And lots of inuendo.

Wiki wrote:Muslim: from the Arabic personal name ? Abdullah 'servant of Allah'. This was the name of the father of the Prophet Muhammad, who died before Muhammad was born.

You wouldn't be a servant of God any longer. You would be a servant of the god Leonard Detweiler. Except he is the father of the new prophets who have gone awry.

Recall that the sign of the beast is 666 which many people say will identify those who take the sign of the beast in the form of a computer chip embedded in their hand. To accept the new financial system without currency.

Computer chip = Apple Computer = (Don't bite) the apple.

NPP! No pitchforks please! I am just the messenger.

tlb wrote:If the consciousness is copied, then the result should be as much a servant of God as the original ever was. I am not sure why you would think that the result would necessarily be a servant of Leonard Detweiler? ThinksMarkedly never said that would be pushed by the Malign. I doubt that they would be interested in making copies of people in general (but there might be interest in specific instances).

As for the chip in the hand, it is already here in the form of a cell phone in the hand (not specifically one embedded in the palm). But saying that is "the mark of the beast" is just another example of people being stupid. There is nothing particularly Godly about our current financial system, so there is no reason to suppose that a change to a new one will be a fall from Grace.

Should be a servant of God and is a servant of God isn't necessarily synonymous. In fact, in this case it isn't. Unless you think the horrific things that went on in the MAlign labs are approved by God. Blessed by God. Or done to the glory of God.

But you might be right that the result would be as godly as it was beforehand. Which is absolutely not at all. No true servant of God's would kill babies, much less wholesale.

I never said ThinksMarkedly was supporting that either, rather than not realizing where something might lead, or what something might suggest.

And sure, religions are the source of lots of nonsense. But don't you think for a moment that religions corner the market on nonsense. At any rate, and as I pointed out, I am simply the messenger.

P.S. Note. It would be a mark on the right hand. Not something held in the right hand. Or on the forehead.

cthia wrote: Should be a servant of God and is a servant of God isn't necessarily synonymous. In fact, in this case it isn't. Unless you think the horrific things that went on in the MAlign labs are approved by God. Blessed by God. Or done to the glory of God.

But you might be right that the result would be as godly as it was beforehand. Which is absolutely not at all. No true servant of God's would kill babies, much less wholesale.

I never said ThinksMarkedly was supporting that either, rather than not realizing where something might lead, or what something might suggest.

And sure, religions are the source of lots of nonsense. But don't you think for a moment that religions corner the market on nonsense. At any rate, and as I pointed out, I am simply the messenger.

P.S. Note. It would be a mark on the right hand. Not something held in the right hand. Or on the forehead.

Why do you keep talking as though this brain replacement is something belonging to the Malign? It has nothing to do with killing babies! Some people talk about the singularity as though it is the point when humans can load themselves into machines, which is the subject of ThinksMarkedly post, but you must see it as inherently evil. I simply see it as impossible in any foreseeable future.

You specifically said a chip in the hand and it is to that I addressed my response. Anyway 666, as the number of a man, may simply be a coded reference to a specific evil man alive at the time the text was written.

Brigade XO wrote:Don't forget the Ghola that show up in the Dune series. The first one we encounter is Duncan Idaho. His memories and much of his personality is reconstituted in a cloned form of himself. There are problems what that - with the entire Ghola process- as it ends up sounding like uploading software (memories) to an "empty" hard drive which is (apparently usually) a clone of the original person. But a Ghola isn't truly that person and it seems to be an incomplete overlay of memories onto a "generic" brain/mind which is force grown along with the new body into what looks like an adult human.
Herbert wasn't all the specific but what ends up happening - with Duncan- is that the interactions with Jessica, and of course Spice, flips the switch between memories transferred and the activation of the existing original personality of Duncan in the new body- something it's makers had been striving for but not previously achieved. He was just a much a breakthrough as was Paul's awakening as the Kwisatz Haderach (without the God effect). Its back to the question of can a clone of a person or a completely differnt person receive a transfer of "memory/mind into it's brain and be the former person. Just like the idea that a clone has the potential to develop into the same kind of person as the original (with any particular trait/gift/talent) but at the moment the challange would be to then replicate (probably in the correct order and circumstances) how they grew up, learned things and were affected/motivated by all sorts of things that led them to what they became.

Also consider Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light, based on the Hindu mythos, where the main characters cheat death by transferring their essence to a spare body (a form of reincarnation).

Or the Telzey Amberdon stories by James H. Schmitz, where she actually swaps the essence of two characters in a short story in which an evil man is watching a good man be eaten alive by a parasite. After the swap the good man inhabits the body of a very rich man married to the woman the good man loved and the evil man is in the body being eaten. No word on what the wife thinks of the change.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote: Should be a servant of God and is a servant of God isn't necessarily synonymous. In fact, in this case it isn't. Unless you think the horrific things that went on in the MAlign labs are approved by God. Blessed by God. Or done to the glory of God.

But you might be right that the result would be as godly as it was beforehand. Which is absolutely not at all. No true servant of God's would kill babies, much less wholesale.

I never said ThinksMarkedly was supporting that either, rather than not realizing where something might lead, or what something might suggest.

And sure, religions are the source of lots of nonsense. But don't you think for a moment that religions corner the market on nonsense. At any rate, and as I pointed out, I am simply the messenger.

P.S. Note. It would be a mark on the right hand. Not something held in the right hand. Or on the forehead.

Why do you keep talking as though this brain replacement is something belonging to the Malign? It has nothing to do with killing babies! Some people talk about the singularity as though it is the point when humans can load themselves into machines, which is the subject of ThinksMarkedly post, but you must see it as inherently evil. I simply see it as impossible in any foreseeable future.

You specifically said a chip in the hand and it is to that I addressed my response. Anyway 666, as the number of a man, may simply be a coded reference to a specific evil man alive at the time the text was written.

Pardon me, but the thread asks if the MAlign and Beowulf have missed certain applications of their research. Then it goes on to discuss some of the extreme applications, which I think would only be considered by the MA. WHO ARE CERTAINLY NOT BLESSED BY GOD.

I do not believe that consciousness can be captured or cloned or stuffed into a computer. I definitely do not think the soul can be captured or cloned. And without a soul there can be no connection to God.


I would really like to delve deeper into the subject with you as I have with friends, some who also enjoy the Honorverse. It is a rewarding discussion. But, alas, religious discussions on this forum with some of these mindsets... is not my cup of tea.

cthia wrote:Pardon me, but the thread asks if the MAlign and Beowulf have missed certain applications of their research. Then it goes on to discuss some of the extreme applications, which I think would only be considered by the MA. WHO ARE CERTAINLY NOT BLESSED BY GOD.

I do not believe that consciousness can be captured or cloned or stuffed into a computer. I definitely do not think the soul can be captured or cloned. And without a soul there can be no connection to God.

I would really like to delve deeper into the subject with you as I have with friends, some who also enjoy the Honorverse. It is a rewarding discussion. But, alas, religious discussions on this forum with some of these mindsets... is not my cup of tea.

It is true that is how the thread started, but I thought we had moved beyond. I tried to be clear that I did not think that brain replacement could be something that would interest the Malign (except for certain individuals); but if you were trying to stick to the original intent, then I apologize.

I agree that unless consciousness could be copied, then the application is worthless; except to create an animatronic copy of a person. Whether a soul is also copied when consciousness is copied is a question that is far beyond me.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Pardon me, but the thread asks if the MAlign and Beowulf have missed certain applications of their research. Then it goes on to discuss some of the extreme applications, which I think would only be considered by the MA. WHO ARE CERTAINLY NOT BLESSED BY GOD.

I do not believe that consciousness can be captured or cloned or stuffed into a computer. I definitely do not think the soul can be captured or cloned. And without a soul there can be no connection to God.

I would really like to delve deeper into the subject with you as I have with friends, some who also enjoy the Honorverse. It is a rewarding discussion. But, alas, religious discussions on this forum with some of these mindsets... is not my cup of tea.

It is true that is how the thread started, but I thought we had moved beyond. I tried to be clear that I did not think that brain replacement could be something that would interest the Malign (except for certain individuals); but if you were trying to stick to the original intent, then I apologize.

I agree that unless consciousness could be copied, then the application is worthless; except to create an animatronic copy of a person. Whether a soul is also copied when consciousness is copied is a question that is far beyond me.

Absolutely not. Unless one thinks he can manipulate the essence of God. In the Old Testament man was descended from Adam. Being descended from Adam, man has always had an excuse of the weakness of the flesh.

Beginning with the New Testament, God made it easier for man. He removed the excuse of the weakness of the flesh by sending his only begotten Son to die for our sins. He then says that he will put His Holy Spirit in man to cause him to follow his commandments. We do not have the power to transfer God's essence.

Since the New Testament, we are now descended from Jesus. Not Adam. No more excuses of being weak in the flesh. Jesus - God in the flesh - came to Earth to show that living in the flesh can be done. By example.

The Alignment seems to have written God or any kind of higher power out of their plans and philosophy. They, the Star Lines at least, see themselves as gods. They are self improving themselves into higher beings and versions of humanity. Hence the referring of non-Star Lines as "normals" and the earlier discussed willingness (indeed they expect too ) kill billions of non-improved (by their methods and directions) of normals.

The challenge of transferring the consciousness of a human mind into another human body doesn't even seem to be on the horizon or in a dream for the the Star Lines. What they have been doing is cloning individuals and then training them. I suspect that the clone sons of Albert Detweiler have all been sort of subtly tweaked such that you have not 100% clone replicas of the body. Oh they all got (we might think) the then latest round of general improvements but given that they all have some -presented as natural inclination- specially areas of expertise, those might have been nudged in when the Long Range Planning Board signed off on this approch.
Remember the sort of fun side diversion about the varioius "accountant" members of the Alignment having a certain fussy and stereotype manners and dispositions? They accentuate the traits the Board and researchers think are what make a person (or type of person) successful or at least more efficient at what the Alignment wants out of them. Sure, most are also socialized but then look at the various assassins and bodyguards. How many clones of the same person (both male and female) do some of these Alpha's have on staff. They are DESIGNED to by smart, strong, fast ,loyal bodyguards with stamina, super reflexes, plus trained to be at least Master level mixed martial artists and good with or without weapons. Yeah, no just tinkering around with the biology lab there...did I mention loyal? What did they do, splice in some canine loyalty genes that have been hammered at with years of training?

I think you can safely leave God out of it for the Alignment except for Honor being quite willing to provide them with an introduction, big smile.

Cthia, As always you post interesting and well thought out concepts.
Unfortunately I believe that you are correct in saying that this topic would be impossible to nail down, due to differing religious beliefs. Yours are fully fixed in a hard line Christianity, which is the lense that you would use to discuss this topic through.
In my case being an atheist/agnostic provides a completely different interpretation. Strangely enough I found a rapport with RFC in his Safehold discussions about using the same mind scan to animate two different PICAs, despite his known Christianity. Asimov in IRobot, handled the topic well.
You believe that unless the sentient creature gets the tick from Jesus it is just a machine, not believing in Jesus enables me to ascribe humanity to it.

cthia wrote:The MA can increase the control of brain functions to fool interrogators and lie detectors. Even of the furry kind by tamping off emotions.

ThinksMarkedly wrote: There is no evidence that fooling treecats is possible. There's one case in TEiF that raises eyebrows and we'll need to discuss, but it's not outright fooling the treecats.

I am willing to agree with that, technically. But that doesn't imply that the 'Cats can't be mislead.

When fooling a lie detector, one has to be able to perfectly control ones emotions. The machine is detecting ones changes in certain biological functions that are affected by emotions.

There are ways to beat the lie detector here on Earth. You can change ...

• Your heart rate
  
• breathing rate
  
• blood pressure
  
• sweat level

when answering control questions.

Control questions are questions whose answer is known. For instance, "What is your name?" The polygraph operator will use the control questions to establish a baseline graph. But one can manipulate the control questions by skewing the readings. The readings can be skewed by doing certain things like biting your tongue, digging your nails into your skin. Thinking of something traumatic or frightening. This is why they ask you to remain absolutely still during these tests.

However, I imagine that a Cat can not be so easily fooled, because a Cat can actually sense the actual emotions, rather than simply the effect of such emotions.

But there is one way to guarantee 100% effectiveness of fooling any lie detector no matter how good it is. Even the Cats ...

And that, is when the source actually believes the lie. It is the source's truth that matters. It is the same with Audrey O'hanrahan. She trusts her Alignment unconditionally and without any reservations. Her truth is what her Alignment feeds her. The Alignment is aware of that as well. Thus, even the Treecats can't discern between real truth and indoctrination.

Switching gears. Since I believe that the effect of certain emotions on the body change or affect the readings, I might tend to believe that total control over ones emotions might actually fool the cats as well.

Cool under pressure.