Why didn't Merlin kill Zhaspyr Clyntahn?

@runsforcelery

You have a really really wicked sense of humoiur !!!

I love it ;)

R

Thanks for the synopsis as well as the reading recommendation :)

R

PeterZ wrote:

kbus888 wrote:I am having trouble following this post as I am not familiar enough with the "Honor Series"

The PEEPS I have heard of

?? What is a "Theisman miss step" ??

I know an explaination may be too long to post - - - so I am ready to continue my life in ignorance of this point ;)

R

I recommend you do 1 thing before you entertain any other reading to-do's:

Begin reading Honor Harrington for start to finish. It is a remarkable story. If you don't get into the techie stuff in novels, skip those. But read the stories. You will not be disappointed. I like the stories so much, I went back and began reading the Hornblower series by Forester.



Thomas Theisman arranged a coup to topple the Committee of Public Safety, the final iteration of the Peep polity. In many ways his character is very similar to Duchairn's. Many of the stories may be on the Baen CD, if you buy one of the more recent in the series.

PeterZ wrote:

kbus888 wrote:@PeterZ
Long and short of it...does the G4 survive this book?
Anyone? Looking for some sort of poll here.

I believe the Go4 will not disolve so soon as in the next book.

They are TOO GOOD as evil characters and I think Mr Weber is not yet finished using them in his story ;)

Besides, the waters are getting somewhat muddy as at least one of them seems to be having a regeneration of faith - - -

That's kind of what is driving me nuts. I see 2 route this story can take. Duchairn's presence makes either possibility viable and interesting.

1) CoGA turns into the theocratic version of the honorverse Peeps where the Shuelerites become the StateSec equivilent. This route fairly requires that the proscriptions will be tossed out through various pragmatic arguments or dispensations on both sides.

2) CoGA reformers under Duchairn purges the Clyntahnistas from power. They approach their Writ with a new sense of faith. That means they actually begin delivering the services the Writ demands from the priesthood as well as keeping the proscriptions. Getting around the proscriptions becomes theological lawyering.

What I do not see is the release of The Truth until after one of these 2 roads are taken. This is why I asked the question.

Which route will the story take? Will the Clyntahnistas escape Duchairn's Theisman coupe (using an Honorverse analogy)? Or will Duchairn make a miss step that Theisman avoided?

Those two routes are well taken, but they envisage a 'natural' evolution of the story based on no further major interventions. Everything we've read so far about Schueler's Key that the Wilsons hold indicates it's a Deus Ex Machina level plot changer that may radically destabilize the whole thing.

The concept of a successfully imposed, demonstrably 'true' planetary religion is fascinating, and one of the big draws of the series. It's hard to envision any relatively quick way to get rid of it in any significant part of the population without something VERY VERY dramatic happening. In a 'natural' progression of events without any further sudden shakeups, I think your second path would be the most likely, or perhaps the first path for a while followed by a collapse, then the second path. Regardless, however, you can't get around the existence of the Temple and it's Miracles itself, or the 6 Million Testimonies of the original colonists, or the blasted landscape of Armageddon Reef. The Church of God Awaiting is REAL by any measure anyone on Safehold outside of St. Jerneau knows, regardless of their feelings for the rightness or evilness of the current management and the resulting current war.

Without something big happening outside of any predicted plot path, you would have to wait for the temple itself to quit working and fall apart and the testimonies fade into millenial obscurity to even start to fight against the CoGA theology.... and that would take a very long time, likely many centuries. Everything the Mad Wizard (though I suppose we should call him RFC here ;-)) has posted lately outside of the books states he's decided to compress the time period covered quite a bit. Initially it was going to be a multi-generational effort on the part of the good guys. Not anymore.

That means something big and unanticipated has to happen. Probably not this book (statements above by RFC supporting), but within the next couple after that.

NervousEnergy wrote:Those two routes are well taken, but they envisage a 'natural' evolution of the story based on no further major interventions. Everything we've read so far about Schueler's Key that the Wilsons hold indicates it's a Deus Ex Machina level plot changer that may radically destabilize the whole thing.

The concept of a successfully imposed, demonstrably 'true' planetary religion is fascinating, and one of the big draws of the series. It's hard to envision any relatively quick way to get rid of it in any significant part of the population without something VERY VERY dramatic happening. In a 'natural' progression of events without any further sudden shakeups, I think your second path would be the most likely, or perhaps the first path for a while followed by a collapse, then the second path. Regardless, however, you can't get around the existence of the Temple and it's Miracles itself, or the 6 Million Testimonies of the original colonists, or the blasted landscape of Armageddon Reef. The Church of God Awaiting is REAL by any measure anyone on Safehold outside of St. Jerneau knows, regardless of their feelings for the rightness or evilness of the current management and the resulting current war.

Without something big happening outside of any predicted plot path, you would have to wait for the temple itself to quit working and fall apart and the testimonies fade into millenial obscurity to even start to fight against the CoGA theology.... and that would take a very long time, likely many centuries. Everything the Mad Wizard (though I suppose we should call him RFC here ;-)) has posted lately outside of the books states he's decided to compress the time period covered quite a bit. Initially it was going to be a multi-generational effort on the part of the good guys. Not anymore.

That means something big and unanticipated has to happen. Probably not this book (statements above by RFC supporting), but within the next couple after that.

Not really. What may happen is that the G4 profane the proscriptions. They turn that guide to living the life God desires man to live into a tool to oppress desenters. Trouble is that there is a good deal of benefit to using those proscribed techniques. Once the benefits are seen, putting the genie back into the bottle is a mite ....well, impossible.

The key is that the CoGA be the one to openly and demonstrably break the proscriptions. Once that's done and there is no divine retribution, my option 2 comes to play. Everything becomes theological lawyering basically repeating the same line: Since the Archangels control everything, any reaction in the physical world happens with their express consent. The Writ created the tool for its own demise in their explanation of the physical world.

The key is the Key. If the KEW is turned off, it is only a matter of time before the G4 break the proscription if they are shown the way. Think of Angelique's network slipping in some information to an appropriately corruptible Shuelerite.

So, although it may be as you post, I suspect that no such massive Deus Ex Machina event is necessary.

NervousEnergy wrote:Those two routes are well taken, but they envisage a 'natural' evolution of the story based on no further major interventions. Everything we've read so far about Schueler's Key that the Wilsons hold indicates it's a Deus Ex Machina level plot changer that may radically destabilize the whole thing.

As long as it's not a friggin' vampire.

PeterZ wrote:Not really. What may happen is that the G4 profane the proscriptions. They turn that guide to living the life God desires man to live into a tool to oppress desenters. Trouble is that there is a good deal of benefit to using those proscribed techniques. Once the benefits are seen, putting the genie back into the bottle is a mite ....well, impossible.

The key is that the CoGA be the one to openly and demonstrably break the proscriptions. Once that's done and there is no divine retribution, my option 2 comes to play. Everything becomes theological lawyering basically repeating the same line: Since the Archangels control everything, any reaction in the physical world happens with their express consent. The Writ created the tool for its own demise in their explanation of the physical world.

The key is the Key. If the KEW is turned off, it is only a matter of time before the G4 break the proscription if they are shown the way. Think of Angelique's network slipping in some information to an appropriately corruptible Shuelerite.

So, although it may be as you post, I suspect that no such massive Deus Ex Machina event is necessary.

That path forward in the plot is possible if you envision a truly massive schism, with one side abandoning the proscriptions and the other clinging to them. The issue I see is that the proscriptions are a huge part of the CoGA itself... they're not a side-show squabble like dancing is for Baptists. ;-) For a large part of the church and layity, and especially the Order of Schueler, the proscriptions ARE the core tenement of the church.

I agree with you that the Key is Key, but I don't see how it could have much to do with the KEW, except as a secondary effect. It was given to the Wilson family by Schueler himself with instructions to use it if heresy threatened the existence of the Church itself, and that it was a one shot deal. You could make the case that it would activate the KEW to a target selected by the key wielder, but then why a one shot? Why keep it secret and give it to a family with an entrenched 'liberal' view? I've posted my theory before that the key is actually a message and sequence of events set up by Schueler in secret from the rest of the Command staff to essentially 'turn off' the Church of God Awaiting once there is a credible movement against it, but it's still a pretty low-percentage idea. Though it would play into your second path pretty well.

Though none of this accounts for Nimue's bat cave full of wonderful toys. DW has stated before that her cache of modern weapons isn't a red herring (though he could always change his mind).

As long as it's not a friggin' vampire.

:-)

NervousEnergy wrote:That path forward in the plot is possible if you envision a truly massive schism, with one side abandoning the proscriptions and the other clinging to them. The issue I see is that the proscriptions are a huge part of the CoGA itself... they're not a side-show squabble like dancing is for Baptists. ;-) For a large part of the church and layity, and especially the Order of Schueler, the proscriptions ARE the core tenement of the church.

I agree with you that the Key is Key, but I don't see how it could have much to do with the KEW, except as a secondary effect. It was given to the Wilson family by Schueler himself with instructions to use it if heresy threatened the existence of the Church itself, and that it was a one shot deal. You could make the case that it would activate the KEW to a target selected by the key wielder, but then why a one shot? Why keep it secret and give it to a family with an entrenched 'liberal' view? I've posted my theory before that the key is actually a message and sequence of events set up by Schueler in secret from the rest of the Command staff to essentially 'turn off' the Church of God Awaiting once there is a credible movement against it, but it's still a pretty low-percentage idea. Though it would play into your second path pretty well.

Though none of this accounts for Nimue's bat cave full of wonderful toys. DW has stated before that her cache of modern weapons isn't a red herring (though he could always change his mind).

As long as it's not a friggin' vampire.

:-)

Well, yes, I sorta do. A broad based conflict is the necessity that breeds innovation. Without some sort of imminent threat, NO ONE on Howard or Haven will change his/her ways. The Gbaba are a hypothetical to these people. A Charis that threatens their way of life and absolute understanding of the world around them is not.

If some bit of authorial handwavium manifest and voila! a deus ex machina event turns up to get everyone on Safehold on Merlin's page, the story would be ruined for me. The Key opening a message from the Archangels saying..."Sorry we lied to you. Forget everything we ever said. God is dead, long live Satan!" I don't think so.

No, the process of changing into the innovative society Terra once boasted is a long one that is filled with struggle, unavoidable struggle.

NervousEnergy wrote:Why keep it secret and give it to a family with an entrenched 'liberal' view?

The Wilson's back then could have been very similar to what Clyntahn is now. It's been nearly a thousand years since they got the key, and the type of 'reform' they're dedicated to could have easily changed from 'keep the traditions the angels gave us' to 'get rid of the corruption and sin that the implementation of the traditions has become and get back to what the angels said to do' to 'get rid of corruption and sin'. The theory of Schueler trying to set up a way to undermine the church is plausible, but the views of the current holders of the key shouldn't be taken as evidence for it.

PeterZ wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:

I don't want to go into too much detail here (for obvious reasons), but there is a very good reason Merlin isn't going to use anything that could possibly be identified (by someone who knows what to look for) as advanced tech to take out anyone in Zion or anywhere else. He still doesn't know what's under the Temple or if it's likely to have any long, earnest conversations with the kinetic bombardment platforms. He is determined not to abuse the faith of the Safeholdians, and not just because it would be morally wrong, either. If he That's definitely one of his reasons, but even if it wouldn't be --- or even if he was prepared to ignore the moral dimension in favor of pragmatism --- his real fight is going to be overturning the theology of the Chuch of God Awaiting after the Gof4 has been defeated.turns into someone who can be labeled as "Just as bad as Clyntahn was!" by manipulating the faith of the devout, it will set his plans back considerably.

He does find out a bit more --- just a bit --- about the Temple's basement in the next book, and he and his friends in Charis have to make a real gut-wrencher of a choice in this book. Clyntahn gets in some good licks, I'm afraid, but the Charisians are positioned to start playing with some neat new toys by the end.

There! Don't you feel all better now? :-)

Runsforcelery,

Thank you for confirming this important motivation behind Merlin's actions. The confirmation opens up a really unpleasant thought for plot twist.

Someone close to our heros finds out about the ruth and can't handle it. Play around with who that may be and consider how dreadful that will be to our protagonists.

I doubt I can think of any more gut wrenching development. You may, of course. I can't wait to find out if my guess is correct.

Hi PeterZ,

Very good points as usual.

I agree that someone trusted with Merlin's secret losing it would be terrible, and I'm confident being human the inner circle will make that mistake sometime, perhaps soon.

Who that person might be, I have no idea, but it will be a painfully powerful moment.

From the textev, I don't think Adorai or Nynian are ready yet for the inner circle, as they still believe in the Archangels and the CoGA as it is supposed to be.

Losing one of them to a crisis of faith would be horrible, but quite possible.

Sharleyan and Olyvya are the only two women at the moment in the inner circle, and I'm sure Sharleyan asked Olivia to help with finding or vetting other female candidates, to avoid being so lonely on the inside etc.

Besides the obvious chemist, I think Wave Thunder's wife might be an excellent choice, since she appears to be as hard-minded as her husband, although he might claim to object to her 'eavesdropping on her husband's last refuge of his own inner thoughts', her advice might be very welcome.
Howsmyn's wife Zhain might be another such excellent candidate.

Getting spouses into the inner circle would be important IMO not just for extra security, but the brains they married were for a reason, and getting their thoughts second hand just isn't as good.

Any other nominations?

Do you have someone in mind for the crisis of faith?

My intuition is that someone will suffer that fate, and it will be part of the scars the inner circle will bear on their souls.

KUTGW (keep up the good work),

L

keylime314 wrote:

NervousEnergy wrote:Why keep it secret and give it to a family with an entrenched 'liberal' view?

The Wilson's back then could have been very similar to what Clyntahn is now. It's been nearly a thousand years since they got the key, and the type of 'reform' they're dedicated to could have easily changed from 'keep the traditions the angels gave us' to 'get rid of the corruption and sin that the implementation of the traditions has become and get back to what the angels said to do' to 'get rid of corruption and sin'. The theory of Schueler trying to set up a way to undermine the church is plausible, but the views of the current holders of the key shouldn't be taken as evidence for it.

Aside from the "plausible" bit, I agree completely. I think it's ridiculous that Schueler had such a motivation. But your idea of the "change in family focus over time" is exactly what I think happened.