Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy

Let´s boil it down to the point:

"Wallers are political instruments, and Cruisers are the every day working horses".

(PS: War is a form of politic)

Maldorian wrote:Let´s boil it down to the point:

"Wallers are political instruments, and Cruisers are the every day working horses".

(PS: War is a form of politic)

Apparently most SL Core worlds couldn't stop a cruiser squadron (anyone's cruisers) from rolling in and seizing their orbitals. They are essentially defenseless, fully depending on the SLN to protect them. If the SLN can't...

Few verge systems could stop a single CA from doing that and essentially none could stop a pair of BCs.

So you don't need to be sending SDs.

kzt wrote:

Maldorian wrote:Let´s boil it down to the point:

"Wallers are political instruments, and Cruisers are the every day working horses".

(PS: War is a form of politic)

Apparently most SL Core worlds couldn't stop a cruiser squadron (anyone's cruisers) from rolling in and seizing their orbitals. They are essentially defenseless, fully depending on the SLN to protect them. If the SLN can't...

Few verge systems could stop a single CA from doing that and essentially none could stop a pair of BCs.

So you don't need to be sending SDs.

You don't need SDs in 1922 PD. You probably will need SDs in 1930 PD.

I fundamentally agree with the quip that Maladorian utters -- cruisers are a lower level political decision for Beowulf. Podnoughts are a major policy decision, especially Podnoughts to be used for expeditionary forces.

If the BSDF does become the Beowulf Space Navy, and if they become part of the SEM, how will that change things strategically for the SEM?

I am imagining the First Space Lord peering into the holotank while realizing new possibilities. Will it change the defensive posture in the MBS?

cthia wrote:If the BSDF does become the Beowulf Space Navy, and if they become part of the SEM, how will that change things strategically for the SEM?

The BSDF/BSN would be folded into the RMN.

But I don't think the Republic of Beowulf or Beowulf-Hypatia joining the SEM is in the cards. An association like the coming one with Haven is more likely. Each entity would keep their own separate militaries in that case.

I am imagining the First Space Lord peering into the holotank while realizing new possibilities. Will it change the defensive posture in the MBS?

It definitely would. The Sigma Draconis system has a population size to rival the rest of the Empire as a whole. The politics of that would be mind-boggling alone. But in terms of protection, Sigma Draconis would need the same level of defences, and possibly quite a deal more, than the Manticore-A system.

That actually does beg the question: now that there is no SLN to protect Beowulf, how big should the Beowuld Space Navy get? Its First Fleet should be as big as Manticore's Home Fleet, which was around 50 wallers. If it must also protect Hypatia and some of the other daughter colonies that join it, I can easily see it getting to 100 active wallers.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:If the BSDF does become the Beowulf Space Navy, and if they become part of the SEM, how will that change things strategically for the SEM?

The BSDF/BSN would be folded into the RMN.

But I don't think the Republic of Beowulf or Beowulf-Hypatia joining the SEM is in the cards. An association like the coming one with Haven is more likely. Each entity would keep their own separate militaries in that case.

I am imagining the First Space Lord peering into the holotank while realizing new possibilities. Will it change the defensive posture in the MBS?

It definitely would. The Sigma Draconis system has a population size to rival the rest of the Empire as a whole. The politics of that would be mind-boggling alone. But in terms of protection, Sigma Draconis would need the same level of defences, and possibly quite a deal more, than the Manticore-A system.

That actually does beg the question: now that there is no SLN to protect Beowulf, how big should the Beowuld Space Navy get? Its First Fleet should be as big as Manticore's Home Fleet, which was around 50 wallers. If it must also protect Hypatia and some of the other daughter colonies that join it, I can easily see it getting to 100 active wallers.

And that opens up another question - If Hypathia is an independent entity, should it not have it's own navy, or else contribute to a defense force? If Not, should Hypathia become part of a larger entity (Beowulf and friends).

And the bigger question, if a polity insists on being neutral and independent, but does not provide for it's own defense and protection, does it "deserve" to be independent? Isn't the cost of defense part of the basic costs of maintaining a government (like police, courts and sewage systems?), and not spending on even the basics (like a handful of LACs/Destroyers), a failing as a government?

Hypathia seems to have had not much more that perhaps Customs LACs and S&R ships and perhaps some tugs, not an SDF and certainly no navy. They are going to have to either join with someone like Beowulf or set up their own SDF. Joining Beowulf (and whatever of the Beowulf daughter colonies and similarly minded other former SL systems want to get into a formal multi-system polity) is still going to mean funding a share of building out the navy that Association will required even if it starts with the BSDF as it's core.

Hypathia at least doesn't have to rebuild it's orbital infrastructure and habitats or extraction industry. Actually it might even have several million tons of former SLN ship pieces accessible for a short time before they transit out of system on whatever the trajectories of the wreckage of said ships gets too far away to be worthwhile recovering. Not mentioned was if any of the damaged SLN ships that couldn't go to hyper were scuttled when the Taskforce was allowed to leave the system.

What will be clear is that Hypathia is going to need some level of ability to patrol and defend the system. In the short term, it probably will have BSDF and some RMN or GA presence but that is a short term solution.
Other than ships surrendered to Manticore or the GA prior to Uncompromising Honor, we don't know how many SLN ships might not be returning to the SL 2.0 although most of what is normally outside the old League would have been FF. So the question of where Hypathia and other systems could get warships (DD though BC) is open. New builds are going to take a while to happen even if there is sufficient space in existing yards. I suspect that any FF ships not presently incapable of hyperspace have been ordered back to what remains of the League naval support stations. The question becomes what is going to happen to any that don't come back.
Any that do require repairs (and don't you think that any yard is going to be really sticky about getting payment up front?) would keep their crews. The ships in the Maya Autonomous Sector as a seperate conversation.

At this point, the GA is also going to have it's hands full even if it wants to pump out thousands of modern LACs and send the out as short term local defence for systems leaving the League or having OFS (and FF support) stripped away as OFS is disbanded. Messy.

You can see an actual example of the issue in the current discussion in Australia about how to operate and maintain nuclear submarines. There is a 40-50 year jump between the elderly Collins and a Virginia/Astute in terms of technology and the complexity is probably 10x.

Even if the US/UK wanted to give them fully working boats they couldn't run them. There is a reason why it takes two years of intensive training (with a 50% washout rate) to produce a new junior reactor submariner, and then at least a year to complete the qualification process on their first sub (with another 10-20% washout rate here). And a sub full of unqualified and inexperienced people is not just incapable of effective operation, it is incapable of being safely operated.

And the support infrastructure doesn't just appear. The people needed to do the complex stuff to keep the boat and reactor running and the facilities needed also don't magically appear. There literally is nobody in Australia who has any idea how to do this work.

kzt wrote:You can see an actual example of the issue in the current discussion in Australia about how to operate and maintain nuclear submarines. There is a 40-50 year jump between the elderly Collins and a Virginia/Astute in terms of technology and the complexity is probably 10x.

Even if the US/UK wanted to give them fully working boats they couldn't run them. There is a reason why it takes two years of intensive training (with a 50% washout rate) to produce a new junior reactor submariner, and then at least a year to complete the qualification process on their first sub (with another 10-20% washout rate here). And a sub full of unqualified and inexperienced people is not just incapable of effective operation, it is incapable of being safely operated.

And the support infrastructure doesn't just appear. The people needed to do the complex stuff to keep the boat and reactor running and the facilities needed also don't magically appear. There literally is nobody in Australia who has any idea how to do this work.

Though the Virginia (and if I recall correctly as the Astute) class subs use non-refuelably reactors that are designed for the lifetime of the boat. So those reactors don't need the midlife Refueling and Complex Overhaul (RCOH), and hence you don't need the corresponding nuclear support infrastructure for that.

You still need the trained reactor operators and nuclear qualified engineering team. And there are likely still additional shoreside support infrastructure for the SSNs than the old SSKs. So yes, it's still a major reach for them.

(And yes, they'll need the nuclear trained and certified crew. Though in Australia's case they can, at least initially, presumably run prospective crew through the US or UK training and certification programs)


But those specific technical details don't directly bear on your analogy of this for systems newly standing up system defense forces.

Brigade XO wrote:Hypathia seems to have had not much more that perhaps Customs LACs and S&R ships and perhaps some tugs, not an SDF and certainly no navy. They are going to have to either join with someone like Beowulf or set up their own SDF. Joining Beowulf (and whatever of the Beowulf daughter colonies and similarly minded other former SL systems want to get into a formal multi-system polity) is still going to mean funding a share of building out the navy that Association will required even if it starts with the BSDF as it's core.

Hypathia at least doesn't have to rebuild it's orbital infrastructure and habitats or extraction industry. Actually it might even have several million tons of former SLN ship pieces accessible for a short time before they transit out of system on whatever the trajectories of the wreckage of said ships gets too far away to be worthwhile recovering. Not mentioned was if any of the damaged SLN ships that couldn't go to hyper were scuttled when the Taskforce was allowed to leave the system.

What will be clear is that Hypathia is going to need some level of ability to patrol and defend the system. In the short term, it probably will have BSDF and some RMN or GA presence but that is a short term solution.
Other than ships surrendered to Manticore or the GA prior to Uncompromising Honor, we don't know how many SLN ships might not be returning to the SL 2.0 although most of what is normally outside the old League would have been FF. So the question of where Hypathia and other systems could get warships (DD though BC) is open. New builds are going to take a while to happen even if there is sufficient space in existing yards. I suspect that any FF ships not presently incapable of hyperspace have been ordered back to what remains of the League naval support stations. The question becomes what is going to happen to any that don't come back.
Any that do require repairs (and don't you think that any yard is going to be really sticky about getting payment up front?) would keep their crews. The ships in the Maya Autonomous Sector as a seperate conversation.

At this point, the GA is also going to have it's hands full even if it wants to pump out thousands of modern LACs and send the out as short term local defence for systems leaving the League or having OFS (and FF support) stripped away as OFS is disbanded. Messy.

The question you are asking is what will their navy look like tomorrow. And we all know the answer to that - pretty much like what it looks like today, so no point arguing it.

Yes, some exiting polities will snag some SLN ships in the madness. And yes, the GA may have a couple to dole out as gifts - and as KZT pointed out, without trained crews and a robust support structure, even the best gifted ship is worthless, or soon will be rendered so.

No, my point was more to 5-10 years down the line. Will Hypathia and similar planets be an anchor to their alliances, unwilling to pay more than a tithe for their own defense, but expecting others to do so for them, or will they double down, and build their own navy? Regardless of their industrial strength, if they don't contribute: either materially, martially, or at least financially, they will become a drag on the greater whole.