Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy

fester wrote:I don't think that Beowulf can assume that it has or more importantly, it will continue to have enough of a technological edge to fight outmassed 20:30:50:100 to 1 and win. We know that second tier systems like Erewhon and Maya can build warships that are vastly superior to anything that was in space in 1910 PD. We know that the SLN was starting to innovate their way to at least address some of their deficiencies with HASTA. We know that CATAPHRACTS are not Apollo MDMs but they are competitive against anything available in 1913 PD and they are competitive against most non Mk-23 and non-Mk-19 missile cruisers in the galaxy. We know that the surviving officer corps of both Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet KNOW that they got hammered by a combination of superior technology and superior training that enabled the cutting edge use of that tech edge. They might not be able to directly address every tech edge the Grand Alliance has but they can take immediate and intermediate steps to blunt some of those advantages.

No one but GA and allies currently have the tech for SD(P)s anyway, so combating warlordism that happened as a result of the war won't need more than cruisers. New bouts of warlordism after this are going to be a different story.

You're right that for regular military posture this won't work.

In 1924 a BSDF/BSN cruiser squadron should be able to rip open the guts of a warlord battle squadron if the BSN is towing pods and have at least KH-1-like capability but in 1940 PD, is that the case that a BSN BC-Ron will be able to fight outnumbered 3:1 against the BC forces of a local star system that is able to build their own warships and throw their own weight around in their own cluster?

I think that there is a window where the tech edge is big enough that the Beowulf expeditionary force can be mostly sub-wallers but that edge is going to close as plenty of individuals and star systems are in the know that the edge exists, can reasonably describe the core elements of that edge (FTL, pods, compensators, micro-fusion plants) and then figure out ways to either directly counter that edge by mirror-imagining parts of the package (CATAPHRACT pods for instance) , or asymmetrically change the dynamics by going down other routes to take away some of the Grand Alliance advantages.

Wallers leaving the home system is a case of war. That's long-term preparation because it's not advisable to prepare for war after it's broken out.

Short of that, I see the BSN mostly like the RMN: lots of smaller ships. The RMN was mostly a BC and DD navy before the war with Haven broke out. I don't think the same force mix will work for the BSN because there's no equivalent to Silesia, but then again Silesia isn't the same any more for the RMN either.

Maldorian wrote:If an increase of pirates really happen, than is the question, are it only modified civilian vessels or some or some more obsolete, speak retired solarian design, warships.

Right and that's what I meant by cruisers sufficing. No pirate or run-of-the-mill warlord is going to get their hands on new tech that so far the GA and allies have, in the near term. In the medium to long-term one, it might happen, as it did with Monica and Indefatigable-class BCs right on Manticore's door.

So maybe the BSN might need to think about waller force projection outside the home system, without a war declaration, unlike what I said above. But that's not a short- or even medium-term thing. For the next two decades, a force of BCs can deal with almost any threat.

Maldorian wrote:Well, one Question is, how would be the security situation after the defeat of the solarian league.

Pirates were always an secret or not so secret way to damage your enemy. I can imagine that the one or other world would support pirates to keep the manticorians and their allies buisy.

So, trade protection should be a resonable job for the beowulfian and manticorian forces.

If an increase of pirates really happen, than is the question, are it only modified civilian vessels or some or some more obsolete, speak retired solarian design, warships.

Maybe. But the way RFC set up the Honorverse piracy is mostly an 'inside the hyper limit' problem; and so only plagues systems that cannot, or will not, deploy forces to secure their local space.


And even then the situation has to be right for piracy to be sustainable. There needs to be enough shipping, despite the piracy, for them to make profitable scores often enough to keep paying their bills. They need trustworth fences reasonably close by (the pirates can only carry so much extra crew to move the captured ships; even if they're mostly riding herd on the captures spacers -- and the further they have to take them the longer each crew will be away from the main pirate ship). And finally they need reasonable close by sources of maintenance, repair, and supply; basically a small yard that can also get ex-military components and is willing to work with known or suspected pirates.


Systems unable to defend their own space are generally too poor to make it cost effective to run escorted convoys into; or even occasionally deploy warships on anti-piracy sweeps. Now Beowulf, or other members of the GA may find it worth it diplomatically to help out verge systems here and there with pirate problems - especially since you want your escorts cycled away from simple fleet escort duties, and your rising officers given the chance to sail into harms way. So anti-piracy patrols don't necessarily have to be directly cost-effective in terms of additional direct economic trade returns.

Of course the other issue with pirates is that the bigger the ship they're operating the most expenses they've got. You need to make a lot less from your captures to keep an old DD or CL economically viable that you'd need for piracy to fund a BC or god help them an SD. So even over the very long term cruisers should be adequate to handle almost all pirates.

Warlords can be a bit different. As can "pirates" which are really privately funded as deniable way to attack an enemy or competitor's commerce; where the benefactors don't care whether or not the "pirate's" captures would cover the expenses.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Wallers leaving the home system is a case of war. That's long-term preparation because it's not advisable to prepare for war after it's broken out.

<snip>

Not necessarily. Wallers visiting an ally is a sign of reassurance that you will be there when you are needed, and to a potential foe, that the "weak" nation has a strong ally who will are there to back them. OR a warning if they have a friendly port visit with said potential foe.

It's also politics and saber rattling - US Carriers in a port send a message. US CArriers just outside a port send a message.

The Great White fleet was a great example of capital ships moving outside territorial waters. They told everyone who saw them:
1) we are international power
2) you want to be our friend/and not our foe
3) we can do what other great powers proved they could not (Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron).
4) Arn't our ships pretty, technologically advanced and in great shape? Tour them - be amazed at our navy.
5) We just prepositioned our newest ships around the word and rotated the oldest home while you were watching and didn't notice.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Maldorian wrote:Well, one Question is, how would be the security situation after the defeat of the solarian league.

Pirates were always an secret or not so secret way to damage your enemy. I can imagine that the one or other world would support pirates to keep the manticorians and their allies buisy.

So, trade protection should be a resonable job for the beowulfian and manticorian forces.

If an increase of pirates really happen, than is the question, are it only modified civilian vessels or some or some more obsolete, speak retired solarian design, warships.

Maybe. But the way RFC set up the Honorverse piracy is mostly an 'inside the hyper limit' problem; and so only plagues systems that cannot, or will not, deploy forces to secure their local space.


And even then the situation has to be right for piracy to be sustainable. There needs to be enough shipping, despite the piracy, for them to make profitable scores often enough to keep paying their bills. They need trustworth fences reasonably close by (the pirates can only carry so much extra crew to move the captured ships; even if they're mostly riding herd on the captures spacers -- and the further they have to take them the longer each crew will be away from the main pirate ship). And finally they need reasonable close by sources of maintenance, repair, and supply; basically a small yard that can also get ex-military components and is willing to work with known or suspected pirates.


Systems unable to defend their own space are generally too poor to make it cost effective to run escorted convoys into; or even occasionally deploy warships on anti-piracy sweeps. Now Beowulf, or other members of the GA may find it worth it diplomatically to help out verge systems here and there with pirate problems - especially since you want your escorts cycled away from simple fleet escort duties, and your rising officers given the chance to sail into harms way. So anti-piracy patrols don't necessarily have to be directly cost-effective in terms of additional direct economic trade returns.

Of course the other issue with pirates is that the bigger the ship they're operating the most expenses they've got. You need to make a lot less from your captures to keep an old DD or CL economically viable that you'd need for piracy to fund a BC or god help them an SD. So even over the very long term cruisers should be adequate to handle almost all pirates.

Warlords can be a bit different. As can "pirates" which are really privately funded as deniable way to attack an enemy or competitor's commerce; where the benefactors don't care whether or not the "pirate's" captures would cover the expenses.

Also, Pirates don't want to face combat with military vessels. Combat kills people, and dead men do not get paid. Besides, combat uses missiles, and the combat load of a ship costs the same as a new ship. In other words, Missiles and Counter missiles are expensive, and come out of a Pirates pockets - just like repairs do. So the fewer spent munitions and repairs (like ZERO) the better.

So any military presence (even an old LAC) is likely to cause a pirate to stay hidden or run.

Theemile wrote:
So any military presence (even an old LAC) is likely to cause a pirate to stay hidden or run.

Well, it depends on objective.

A single loaded merchant will pay for a lot of missiles, if you have somewhere that will turn cargo into money into ordinance/repairs.

If it's an old LAC vs basically a frigate class ship then probably, if it's likely to be able to get a shot off. Against a DD scale ship, not so likely. Against an actual CA? Hah.

Of course, an old-school CA has a lot of crew, which means your operating costs are high and you also need a reasonably sophisticated support infrastructure to keep the ship operating close to capabilities.

But while a single merchant is worth big bucks, what is the likely value of your entire system? A full-up CA can pretty much roll into a verge system and take over. It can take take everything that isn't nailed down and pry up much of what is nailed down. Load it up on a bunch of 8MT freighters they 'found' and sail off.

Or, it you are capable of delayed gratification, you can come in and make a deal that provides something long-term. From "Nice planet you have here..." to something really mutually beneficial.

What is the single largest piece of trade that Beowulf should have? Medical tech and training and things like Prolong. You may or may not be able to have long term repeat customers for Prolong series sets of meds but you are going to have a lot of systems that would like to license the products and buy probably the 1st set of manufacturing capability and pay royalties on making it themselves. But if you partner (or your citizens partner) with people in other systems to build the capacity to manufacture something like Prolong (and that really should mean being able to produce ALL the components from equipment to feedstock components for the pharma) then you get the original purchase and residuals from licensing etc.

At the moment Beowulf is building a lot of equipment and machinery for Manticore and Grayson but that should shift in who is the end user of what is being provided. As both Manticore and Grayson build out their stations and infrastructure they will start taking over more and more of both the rebuilding and then start producing for both local consumption and export. It will happen. How fast is the question. In any case, there will be markets for similar products from, say, Beowulf, Manticore, Grayson and Haven.....and don't discount anybody else who licenses if not starts knock-off products.

I agree Beowulf will probably at least replace its existing wallers with newer ships on various
GA designs, probably even round it up a bit. But if you going to support your own merchant marine going into the areas formerly controlled by the League (OFS systems and OFS clients etc) then you are going to need more of the ships from the DD to BC classes to provide that coverage. That part of your SDF/Navy is going to get dedicated to stamping out the remains of interstellar slave trade also means that you are going to have to have the lifting and delivery capability as well as scouting for those sorts of missions. The Beowulf Biological Survey will need to continue in both the public (that biological survey and probably medical problem assistance part ) as well as covert as well as overt taking down of slavery operations.

We have no idea yet what the SL 2.0 will look like in one, five or ten years but it is unlikely to be some nice smooth glob of SL controlled space. Probably more like an amoeba all spread out but with spatter lines and tendrils and globs that are all over the place and some of that will be across tenuous reaches with non-SL systems scattered between them. So how do you stay ahead of piracy in its many forms. You kill the bastards when you can and take down their support systems.
Also provides the training and experience for your SDF, not the least is schooling your officers to make decisions removed from higher authority across lots and lots of lightyears from people who could do the job themselves.
And then you have to start both replacing and adding new ships based on new tech and evolving mission parameters and Beowulf (and probably GA) diplomacy and System Interests.

Theemile wrote:The Great White fleet was a great example of capital ships moving outside territorial waters. They told everyone who saw them:
1) we are international power
2) you want to be our friend/and not our foe
3) we can do what other great powers proved they could not (Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron).
4) Arn't our ships pretty, technologically advanced and in great shape? Tour them - be amazed at our navy.
5) We just prepositioned our newest ships around the word and rotated the oldest home while you were watching and didn't notice.

Mind you, sending a fleet of 16 predreadnoughts around the world over a year after HMS Dreadnought had entered service, and with the dreadnought building race well under way, somewhat undermined #4.

HMS Dreadnought commissioned December 2nd 1906.
By the time the Great White Fleet departed on December 16, 1907 there were an additional 3 British Dreadnoughts already launched but not yet commissioned (plus another just weeks away from being laid down), as well as 4 US and 4 German Dreadnoughts in various stages of construction.

And by the time they were back just over a year later, on February 22, 1909, the British had commissioned their 2nd dreadnought, plus laid down 4 more (including the one I'd already mentioned) and launched 3 of those [so 1 on the stocks & 5 launched but not commissioned]; US had launched (but not commissioned) its first 4 dreadnoughts (though it wouldn't lay down its 5th and 6th for a couple more weeks); and Germany had also launched its first 4 and laid down another 3.


So they were still a very powerful fleet, but one that every competent naval observer knew was behind the times and would be obsolete as soon as everyone's existing building plans could be completed.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:The Great White fleet was a great example of capital ships moving outside territorial waters. They told everyone who saw them:
1) we are international power
2) you want to be our friend/and not our foe
3) we can do what other great powers proved they could not (Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron).
4) Arn't our ships pretty, technologically advanced and in great shape? Tour them - be amazed at our navy.
5) We just prepositioned our newest ships around the word and rotated the oldest home while you were watching and didn't notice.

Mind you, sending a fleet of 16 predreadnoughts around the world over a year after HMS Dreadnought had entered service, and with the dreadnought building race well under way, somewhat undermined #4.

HMS Dreadnought commissioned December 2nd 1906.
By the time the Great White Fleet departed on December 16, 1907 there were an additional 3 British Dreadnoughts already launched but not yet commissioned (plus another just weeks away from being laid down), as well as 4 US and 4 German Dreadnoughts in various stages of construction.

And by the time they were back just over a year later, on February 22, 1909, the British had commissioned their 2nd dreadnought, plus laid down 4 more (including the one I'd already mentioned) and launched 3 of those [so 1 on the stocks & 5 launched but not commissioned]; US had launched (but not commissioned) its first 4 dreadnoughts (though it wouldn't lay down its 5th and 6th for a couple more weeks); and Germany had also launched its first 4 and laid down another 3.


So they were still a very powerful fleet, but one that every competent naval observer knew was behind the times and would be obsolete as soon as everyone's existing building plans could be completed.

Everyone paying attention knew the US was a competitor in the Dreadnaught race, and no one outside of Europe had yet seen one. Outside of the 1/2 dozen European powers with pre-dreadnaughts (and Japan), this was the most powerful naval force they had ever seen, and proved that the US was "there" as a world power.

Despite the transition in technology happening in the background, the Great White Fleet did it's job as a herald to the world of the US political, martial, and economic power - it is a classic example using a capital ship outside of strictly martial pursuits to advance a polity's political agenda.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Mind you, sending a fleet of 16 predreadnoughts around the world over a year after HMS Dreadnought had entered service, and with the dreadnought building race well under way, somewhat undermined #4.

HMS Dreadnought commissioned December 2nd 1906.
By the time the Great White Fleet departed on December 16, 1907 there were an additional 3 British Dreadnoughts already launched but not yet commissioned (plus another just weeks away from being laid down), as well as 4 US and 4 German Dreadnoughts in various stages of construction.

And by the time they were back just over a year later, on February 22, 1909, the British had commissioned their 2nd dreadnought, plus laid down 4 more (including the one I'd already mentioned) and launched 3 of those [so 1 on the stocks & 5 launched but not commissioned]; US had launched (but not commissioned) its first 4 dreadnoughts (though it wouldn't lay down its 5th and 6th for a couple more weeks); and Germany had also launched its first 4 and laid down another 3.


So they were still a very powerful fleet, but one that every competent naval observer knew was behind the times and would be obsolete as soon as everyone's existing building plans could be completed.

Everyone paying attention knew the US was a competitor in the Dreadnaught race, and no one outside of Europe had yet seen one. Outside of the 1/2 dozen European powers with pre-dreadnaughts (and Japan), this was the most powerful naval force they had ever seen, and proved that the US was "there" as a world power.

Despite the transition in technology happening in the background, the Great White Fleet did it's job as a herald to the world of the US political, martial, and economic power - it is a classic example using a capital ship outside of strictly martial pursuits to advance a polity's political agenda.

True