Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy

cthia wrote:"Don't cry for me when I'm gone," Argentina.

tlb wrote:Minor quibble: By taking "Argentina" out of the quotes, you make it appear this is something said by Argentina (to the world?)! Instead, this is Evita talking to the people of Argentina. I am guessing you just misfired when placing that ending quote, which explains why you ended with a comma.

cthia wrote:I intentionally did that, it is not a misfire. My goal was to make it clear that I am speaking for Sphinx, and not Madonna. I am very guilty of giving forumites the benefit of the doubt that they can figure some things out. You've demonstrated I am correct. I decided to include the "Argentia" reference bin case people were confused because they didn't see the movie and could Google it.

In that case I have a major quibble, since that the song is telling Argentina not to mourn her death; whereas you are arguing that Manticore would rightly mourn Sphinx's death and thus should try harder to prevent it.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:"Don't cry for me when I'm gone," Argentina.

tlb wrote:Minor quibble: By taking "Argentina" out of the quotes, you make it appear this is something said by Argentina (to the world?)! Instead, this is Evita talking to the people of Argentina. I am guessing you just misfired when placing that ending quote, which explains why you ended with a comma.

cthia wrote:I intentionally did that, it is not a misfire. My goal was to make it clear that I am speaking for Sphinx, and not Madonna. I am very guilty of giving forumites the benefit of the doubt that they can figure some things out. You've demonstrated I am correct. I decided to include the "Argentina" reference in case people were confused because they didn't see the movie and could Google it.

In that case I have a major quibble, since that the song is telling Argentina not to mourn her death; whereas you are arguing that Manticore would rightly mourn Sphinx's death and thus should try harder to prevent it.

I can accept that. I didn't insist that I actually achieved my goal. And I toyed with going in and changing it. And maybe I should have.

But it had something to do with what is now your "major" quibble. I was inferring that I think Sphinx would want Manticore to cry for them, now, instead of when they are dead. Don't bother then.

Like I am crying for them before they are dead, now that they have a big fat juicy space station in orbit. But no change in their mobile defenses. And the static defenses aren't changed much either. As far as I am aware.

cthia wrote:Like I am crying for them before they are dead, now that they have a big fat juicy space station in orbit. But no change in their mobile defenses. And the static defenses aren't changed much either. As far as I am aware.

I hope this new station is not close enough to Sphinx to rain debris on the planet, if it is blown up.

I think that local defenses are being increased with LAC bases everywhere (which do not need to be substantial). Also the new station should include LAC operations. We just have not heard about it, because it has not yet been needed in the plot lines.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Like I am crying for them before they are dead, now that they have a big fat juicy space station in orbit. But no change in their mobile defenses. And the static defenses aren't changed much either. As far as I am aware.

I hope this new station is not close enough to Sphinx to rain debris on the planet, if it is blown up.

I think that local defenses are being increased with LAC bases everywhere (which do not need to be substantial). Also the new station should include LAC operations. We just have not heard about it, because it has not yet been needed in the plot lines.

I certainly concur, which highlights my reference to rain upstream.

Just to share with you how my warped brain works, along with my incessant fascination with the human element, I wonder how many people are slyly trying to get a transfer from the space station in Sphinx orbit to the one in the MBS because their... let's say... Spider senses are tingling. They may be thinking (quite erroneously) that lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice.

Dunno about Ghosts -- or their brethren, Spiders -- striking twice in the same place, but they can create much more powerful 3-second freak energy storms.

You could just plant a bomb in the new station. Ideally I'd want to have some sort of bomb pumped graser. Given the kind of forensics possible after the station blows up real good you'd see some sort of intense gamma source involved when the station blew up. What's the obvious source of an intense gamma source connected with a station that blows up real good?

So when they pour through the records after the disaster they will see that they detected no trace of the attacker.

kzt wrote:You could just plant a bomb in the new station. Ideally I'd want to have some sort of bomb pumped graser. Given the kind of forensics possible after the station blows up real good you'd see some sort of intense gamma source involved when the station blew up. What's the obvious source of an intense gamma source connected with a station that blows up real good?

So when they pour through the records after the disaster they will see that they detected no trace of the attacker.

It seems to me that we discussed some of this after reading about the bombs at Beowulf (perhaps we should have discussed it after that bomb in the space station in the Talbott Quarter). A military station should be purely military, without the public cargo or passenger handling facilities. Anything moved to a military station should be on military transport and must be acknowledged as requested and signed for before loading on that transport. That will not eliminate all error, but it would remove the possibility of a package containing a bomb in a dead letter office.

Even for civilian cargo handling, there should be a purely cargo handling station and any inbound cargo that is not acknowledged and signed for should go to some remote dead letter warehouse where waldos will handle it, open it after some set time and safely dispose of it (either by sale or destruction).

cthia wrote:My original point is that:

1. If I were Sphinx and the concern seemed to be focused on someone else's henhouse (Beowulf), I'd be pissed.

I understand your points. You probably don't mean on ever focusing on any other systems, but focusing on them before properly protecting Sphinx. My argument is that Sphinx is already properly protected. Hence, I don't think this concern is warranted.

2. I'd be appalled if I thought I was being used as a distraction or as a Pawn, Bishop, Rook or Knight as part of some lameass sacrifice. I understand sacrifices as part of a plan, but not for free or unnecessarily. After all, we are talking about sacrificing people. Real flesh and blood, and not just some plastic pieces aboard a chess board.

Understood too, but also unwarranted. No one is saying that Sphinx or Gryphon or Basilisk or San Martin would be unnecessarily sacrificed. If any of those is to be sacrificed, it's because the RMN were left with no other choice.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the people living on Sphinx would understand that the defences and plans are already doing all that is necessary to protect them. They may see more defences around Manticore and, despite intellectually knowing that Manticore is more important, cry foul and complain.

3. And I'd be absolutely mortified if I were Sphinx and you dangled me out on a line and threw blood all over me (by placing a big fat juicy space station in my orbit) to attract the Sharks. But left my mobile defenses essentially the same. Which is why I suggested at least "castling" or something.

Agreed, I'd be mortified too. Fortunately, the station is not there to attract the Sharks. It's there to provide a useful service to Sphinx, to the system, and to the Empire.

Some really strident voices on Sphinx may say they want no station for fear of a second Yawata Strike, because its mere existence will attract it. But if you take that to the extreme, Sphinx's mere existence is attracting an attack. Those people should organise a plebiscite to secede from the Star Empire and declare neutrality. I'd like to see how well that is going to go. And whether the MAlign would honour such neutrality.

4. Bolster our mobile forces. We will take your leftovers. Or even your trash.

5. Especially when, by now, we're the richest system in the Galaxy. With all of our money, make it "rain" on us. Instead of the enemy making it rain orbital debris.

I didn't understand point #4. For #5, see the responses above about already being sufficiently protected to the best of RMN's ability.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:PS. I do not believe Mantincore's Navy will deploy trash nor do I expect Home Fleet to be deployed at some point partway between the two. What I do expect is that Sphinx will be defended by LAC's and system defense pods; both in large numbers. Once Mycoft is hardened, then I expect it to be added. That particular mix has great defensive power without offering anything that would be of enough value by itself to justify an attack.

More precicely I expect that Manticore and Sphinx will have very similar levels of "fixed" defenses - pod-laying forts, LAC bases, access to system defense missile pods, etc.

But the mobile Home Fleet is a unified force that defends the Manticore-A system, and while Manticore is somewhat more important than Sphinx, Home Fleet has the responsibility to defend both and will attempt that to the best of their abilities. But that require their force to be kept fairly concentrated; though I imagine that their precise deployment will vary throughout the years based on where the planets are in conjunction to each other and to the resonance zone. (Remember, there's about 1/5-1/6th of its year when Sphinx should be deep enough in the RZ that the least time course from closest emergence to Manticore would be less than the one to Sphinx -- making Manticore temporarily the more exposed planet)

Very interesting. So there is a proper time to castle. Life imitates art.

Both Manticore and Sphinx having similar levels of fixed defenses is at least part of what I am lobbying for. And if a spider-drive detector is developed, Sphinx should definitely get it second, on the heels of Manticore.

But my overarching point is this. If the RMN is retiring ships, as is the premise upstream, why can't those ships be earmarked for Sphinx? Before considering another polity, like Beowulf? A system that isn't even part of the Manticore Binary System, and iinm, not yet part of the GA.

Still mindful of tlb's notion of creating a bigger target by stationing more ships at Sphinx, doesn't placing a big fat juicy important target in their orbit already make that a foregone conclusion?

Jonathan. Your point of being defeated in detail is valid. But I question the "... require their force to be kept concentrated." Why must that be written in stone?

At what point will the RMN's order of battle reach the point of diminishing returns? Present missile technology and podlayers decrease the number of ships needed to protect the system. I am not suggesting the RMN has reached that point of saturation now. But in a era of extended peace, I can see a time when they will have a surplus of ships like the SL. Why place them in mothballs when they will still be far superior than anything else in the Galaxy. And why stop producing them for the main force stationed at Manticore when you could double your force and double your pleasure by having two equal and opposite forces stationed at both Manticore AND Sphinx? Especially when money isn't an object, and warm bodies to crew the surplus of ships won't be an object either, shortly, with the addition of so many planets, and/or people.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I understand your points. You probably don't mean on ever focusing on any other systems, but focusing on them before properly protecting Sphinx.

A+

cthia wrote:But my overarching point is this. If the RMN is retiring ships, as is the premise upstream, why can't those ships be earmarked for Sphinx? Before considering another polity, like Beowulf? A system that isn't even part of the Manticore Binary System, and iinm, not yet part of the GA.

Because the RMN has a manpower shortage - so you want to devote the available manpower to the most modern, most capable ships -- not the older less capable ones you're retiring. Sphinx doesn't have its own separate pool of naval personnel so giving them the ships either doesn't help at all because they can't man them, or hurts because it causes people that could be manning the newer better ships to be "wasted" manning less capable older ships.


Ok, in a universe where the warships are unmanned and zero maintenance, so there's no real extra costs (real or opportunity) for keeping them around then there'd be a better argument for demoting ships off the frontlines and giving them to various constituent planets to bolster their defenses -- but that's not the Honorverse.

cthia wrote:But my overarching point is this. If the RMN is retiring ships, as is the premise upstream, why can't those ships be earmarked for Sphinx? Before considering another polity, like Beowulf? A system that isn't even part of the Manticore Binary System, and iinm, not yet part of the GA.

Because that doesn't make sense. It's an oxymoron.

The space defenders of Sphinx are called the RMN. So if the RMN is retiring ships, the RMN is by definition not giving those ships to the RMN,

We haven't heard of the MPARS since Travis' time. There doesn't seem to be a separate "System Guard" component of the Manticore military; it's all the RMN. And even if there had been, by comparison to the United States Coast Guard, they want smaller, lighter units, not SDs. Unless the USCG is hiding an aircraft carrier or a battleship somewhere were not aware?

Unless you suggest that the Sphinx Forestry Service get superdreadnoughts. Maybe then the FAKE SPOILERS thread suggestion of treecat-crewed SDs would come true.

Still mindful of tlb's notion of creating a bigger target by stationing more ships at Sphinx, doesn't placing a big fat juicy important target in their orbit already make that a foregone conclusion?

Yes. But as before, existing as a member of the SEM makes them a target.

The Government and the population need to find a compromise between the level of risk, the need to defend it (and the other two planets, plus all the resource extraction industries), and the benefit they bring. The SEM can't cower in fear that the shadows are going to jump up and attack at any moment. They have to move on, if nothing else, to rebuild their ability to withstand those very shadows.

Jonathan. Your point of being defeated in detail is valid. But I question the "... require their force to be kept concentrated." Why must that be written in stone?

It's not. He was very clear that the deployment will vary depending on the relative positions of the Manticore planet, Sphinx and the RZ. If it were just two planets, the deployment scenarios are pretty simple because they come into alignment roughly every half the period of rotation of the outer planet (assuming they're not in resonance; Manticore and Sphinx aren't). With the RZ thrown into the mix, the period is much, much higher, with many different configurations until the patterns start to repeat.

And besides, with Mycroft and sysdef 4DMs around, Home Fleet is not the biggest punch. It's there as a mobile force to catch anything that fell through the cracks, to react to imperfections in the plan that the enemy managed to exploit. Given "defeat in detail," it's nearly always much better to keep such a force intact. It's not "written in stone" as much as "it just makes sense for the tactical situation."

At what point will the RMN's order of battle reach the point of diminishing returns? Present missile technology and podlayers decrease the number of ships needed to protect the system. I am not suggesting the RMN has reached that point of saturation now. But in a era of extended peace, I can see a time when they will have a surplus of ships like the SL. Why place them in mothballs when they will still be far superior than anything else in the Galaxy. And why stop producing them for the main force stationed at Manticore when you could double your force and double your pleasure by having two equal and opposite forces stationed at both Manticore AND Sphinx? Especially when money isn't an object, and warm bodies to crew the surplus of ships won't be an object either, shortly, with the addition of so many planets, and/or people.

Hence the drawdown that Elizabeth announced at the end of UH. We know the fleets will be smaller in a time of peace. The cost of running them as a fighting force is high.

But that's where Mycroft and the 4DMs come into play. You can probably have tens of thousands of missiles at the ready and two Mycroft platforms operating for the cost of a single SD(P). So if you retire two short squadrons of 6 SD(P)s, especially the older ones, you can replace them with two dozen Mycroft platforms (half on standby) and a two hundred thousand missiles. That's an extremely powerful deterrent.

As I calculated earlier in the thread (or the other thread), those missiles will arrive at the attacking fleet that dropped on the hyperlimit before they can hyper out. Any fleet that arrives and fires is dead, period.

Against a stealth enemy that is practising asymmetric warfare, they won't help. But a packed Home Fleet with a shell of Ghost Riders might.