Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

I suspect that Sphinx is unlikely to get its own Home Fleet detachment (though IIRC Gryphon does).

Depending on the planetary alignment the Manticore-A component of Home Fleet might be deployed close to Sphinx, when the planets are in conjunction and so any least time course to Manticore could easily be intercepted from Sphinx.

But at other times they'll be closer to opposition and a single force can't properly cover both planets. However Sphinx is so close to the hyper limit that a separate detachment there is at risk of getting destroyed in detail before they can combine with the forces near Manticore.
And if you try to be strong everywhere you're strong nowhere - so you need to sometimes prioritize concentration of force at the expense of reducing the area you're covering.


There's a nonlinear factor in combat, the "N-Squared Law" where, thanks to progressive attrition, doubling your combat power allows you to knock out the enemy in well less than half the time, with well less than half the losses you'd have taken. That's kind of the core of defeating an enemy in detail; you could be weaker than their combined forces, but if you can meet them piecemeal in a bunch of engagements that are lopsided in your favor you can destroy far more than your own combat power. So Manticore would want to avoid splitting the core of Home Fleet in Manticore-A. They'd probably rather risk destruction of Sphinx's orbital industry and temporary loss of its orbitals to ensure that their fleet has the best chance of stopping a powerful attack before it can capture Manticore itself.

All of that certainly makes sense, Jonathan, in general. But my notion is based on the suggestions upstream about giving Beowulf retired, but still formidable, ships. Which, incidentally, always makes me want to speak up for Torch as well, in this time of peace.

However, if Sphinx has no actual military value then bolstering its mobile force shouldn't make Sphinx itself a bigger target. Other than perhaps the ships stationed there. Enemy intel always seems to know what targets are bonafide military targets.


So, none of Honor's family are left living on Sphinx? I wasn't aware of that. Although, at this point possibly, all it would take to knock her off her rails is the lost of just one more. "The straw that broke the camel's back," as it were.

But yes, your points are well taken. Thanks.

Once upon a time, I enquired in another thread about the distinction between an SDF and a Navy. KZT stated just a day or so ago that it is essentially in name only. Which is the only response I have gotten. I am aware that what passes as an SDF, now, would have been considered a powerful navy in Roger's time. With the inflation of heavy metal. LOL

Hmm, a serious attack on Sphinx/Gryphon could be used as a ploy to pull some of Home Fleet out of position.

cthia wrote:
Once upon a time, I enquired in another thread about the distinction between an SDF and a Navy. KZT stated just a day or so ago that it is essentially in name only. Which is the only response I have gotten. I am aware that what passes as an SDF, now, would have been considered a powerful navy in Roger's time. With the inflation of heavy metal. LOL

Hmm, a serious attack on Sphinx/Gryphon could be used as a ploy to pull some of Home Fleet out of position.

An SDF is just a Planetary/system navy for a planet/system that is part of a larger political unit which has an over reaching Navy. Think of it like a US State National Guard or Militia.

However, the Master Polity with the main navy has to decide if SDFs need to exist - in other words, if local defense units are supplied from the main Navy, or supplied by the local economy. In the SKM, it currently appears to be no - local defenses are usually parts of the main navy, though they also allowed the Talbot SDFs to remain (for now), but other than that, all local defense forces are assigned RMN fleet units.

Theemile wrote:
An SDF is just a Planetary/system navy for a planet/system that is part of a larger political unit which has an over reaching Navy. Think of it like a US State National Guard or Militia.

However, the Master Polity with the main navy has to decide if SDFs need to exist - in other words, if local defense units are supplied from the main Navy, or supplied by the local economy. In the SKM, it currently appears to be no - local defenses are usually parts of the main navy, though they also allowed the Talbot SDFs to remain (for now), but other than that, all local defense forces are assigned RMN fleet units.

That's certainly the way the term seems to have been used within the League. But there may be some independent single systems that co-opt the SDF name to emphasize the defensive role they foresee for their warships. Kind of like how modern Japan doesn't have a navy; it has the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force -- JMSDF. (Which has more combat capability than the navy of a lot of countries)



Though I could see, if parts of Manticoran Silesia vote to start migrating toward renewed independence rather than joining the SEM, Manticore potentially allowing them to stand up local SDFs to prepare for the point where they'd leave protectorate status and need to provide for their own defense and anti-piracy work.

tlb wrote:However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

40% of your military industry and one of the three main bases of the RMN means it is very important.

It's like saying, "Other then being the seat of goverment, Washington DC is just an unimportant crime-ravaged minor city."

tlb wrote:However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

Jonathan_S wrote:I suspect that Sphinx is unlikely to get its own Home Fleet detachment (though IIRC Gryphon does).

Depending on the planetary alignment the Manticore-A component of Home Fleet might be deployed close to Sphinx, when the planets are in conjunction and so any least time course to Manticore could easily be intercepted from Sphinx.

But at other times they'll be closer to opposition and a single force can't properly cover both planets. However Sphinx is so close to the hyper limit that a separate detachment there is at risk of getting destroyed in detail before they can combine with the forces near Manticore.
And if you try to be strong everywhere you're strong nowhere - so you need to sometimes prioritize concentration of force at the expense of reducing the area you're covering.

There's a nonlinear factor in combat, the "N-Squared Law" where, thanks to progressive attrition, doubling your combat power allows you to knock out the enemy in well less than half the time, with well less than half the losses you'd have taken. That's kind of the core of defeating an enemy in detail; you could be weaker than their combined forces, but if you can meet them piecemeal in a bunch of engagements that are lopsided in your favor you can destroy far more than your own combat power. So Manticore would want to avoid splitting the core of Home Fleet in Manticore-A. They'd probably rather risk destruction of Sphinx's orbital industry and temporary loss of its orbitals to ensure that their fleet has the best chance of stopping a powerful attack before it can capture Manticore itself.

cthia wrote:However, if Sphinx has no actual military value then bolstering its mobile force shouldn't make Sphinx itself a bigger target. Other than perhaps the ships stationed there. Enemy intel always seems to know what targets are bonafide military targets.


So, none of Honor's family are left living on Sphinx? I wasn't aware of that. Although, at this point possibly, all it would take to knock her off her rails is the lost of just one more. "The straw that broke the camel's back," as it were.

But yes, your points are well taken. Thanks.

I do not think we know whether Honor has remaining relatives on Sphinx, but the odds are that she does. My point was that the relatives to whom she is closest have either died in the Yawata Strike or have moved away (such has her parents, her siblings and her family). The heir of the cousin that inherited her first Manticoran title could still be there, for example.

You have it backwards about military value: Sphinx with no close military assets has no military value and as you increase the military assets around Sphinx then its military value as a target will increase at least proportionally. At some point, because of the the "N-Squared Law", the addition of more military assets (while the majority of Manticore's military has guard the home planet) will make Sphinx the prime target as a way to defeat a significant piece of Manticore's strength.

tlb wrote:However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

kzt wrote:40% of your military industry and one of the three main bases of the RMN means it is very important.

It's like saying, "Other then being the seat of goverment, Washington DC is just an unimportant crime-ravaged minor city."

That was true prior to the Yawata Strike, but is that militarily wise when rebuilding?

Agreed, the seat of government and a few surrounding military bases, such Andrews and Bolling, are the only reasons that DC has military importance.

And Sphinx is likely to still have orbital podlaying forts and LAC bases, plus some Apollo pods outside the forts. So it's not like it's undefended; it just seems unlikely to have a portion of Manticore-A's fleet separately posted by it. But those permanent defenses should be able to stand off several squadrons of SD(P) should they stand and fight (or emerge close enough to come under fire before their hyper generators can recharge and they can cycle out). And if they risk hanging around trying to dance in and out of hyper to dodge Apollo strikes they risk Home Fleet slipping into hyper itself and swinging around to catch them.

And against any threat massive enough to overcome Sphinx's fixed defenses then you'd want all of home fleet concentrated to meet it; not caught half in one place and half in the other.

kzt wrote:

tlb wrote:However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

40% of your military industry and one of the three main bases of the RMN means it is very important.

It's like saying, "Other then being the seat of goverment, Washington DC is just an unimportant crime-ravaged minor city."

Thank you, k-z-t. I thought I had recalled correctly that a new base had been established there after Oyster Bay, because of the questionable wisdom of continuing to put all of the RMN's eggs in one basket. That seems like a good enough reason to heavily bolster Sphinx's mobile assets.

Again, I'm only talking about using still formidable but retiring ships, that otherwise wouldn't be part of Home Fleet anyways.

Albeit, and admittedly, Jonathan's notion of possibly being defeated in detail rings true. As does tlb's notion of attracting the attention of an enemy assault with the neon signs of more wedges.

But assigning an inferior mobile force to Sphinx doesn't make sense either considering Sphinx's obvious importance. It all reminds me of a certain poor fellow named Allen Higgins and Grendelsbane. Speaking of which, there is no reason the force at Sphinx can't take a page out of Higgins' book and withdraw if need be, upon receipt of being overrun.

Besides, present strategy risks being defeated in detail anyway, if a savvy navy with the correct number of hulls uses a large enough force to attack Sphinx simple as a feint to draw Home Fleet out of position. Which is what would happen isn't it? At the very least, a sizable portion of Home Fleet would go charging off to assist Sphinx leaving Manticore much less defended.

Or, an enemy could simply forego fancy tactics by simply going for Sphinx as the main target, as a similar prelude of defeating the RMN in detail by eliminating -- what did kzt say -- 40% of their military industry.

I really can't see the new wisdom of relocating one of your three prized chickens out of the protection of the Manty henhouse and placing it in the orbit of an easier target at Sphinx. Seems like that move would also cause an enemy to perk up at the new possibilities. "HA HA HUMMM! Veddy intresting. A chink in the armor!"

I suppose nobody is considering placing the orbital infrastructure further from the various planets to attempt to avoid the debris fall situation of Oyster Bay? Probably because there is a very practical reason for how far (or close or not close) such installations are place, they being "in orbit" and reasonable movement of people and materials to and from the planet.

You have to defend Sphinx to a certain level or you risk an advisory walking in and then effectively holding the inhabited planet hostage as leverage in demands on the Monarchy and Government.
Remember that if you loose Manticore, it will ultimately entail the loss of Sphinx to the people who take Manticore A.

While modern forts, LACs and shoals of pods would help, mostly they end up making it very expensive (at least potentially so) for the enemy to go after Sphinx and loose ships doing it that would probably be more useful going after the center of government. Attrition is very much a double edged sword and the calculus would have to be what the short term (probably in terms of days) advantage would be to keep such MRN mobile units (hyper capable warships) pinned around Sphinx or destroyed before they could shift to Manticore A vs it's cost in ships to the attacker and if having them with the group going directly at Manticore.

A Self Defense Force is a name. It has been pointed out that the JSDF is quite a bit larger than quite a few maritime nations Navys

Beowulf's use of the name BSDF is part of it's posture, both in the League and with it's trading partners -inside and outside the League.
Recall that it has a good sized merchant marine and it has a large number of trading partners -again, both within and outside the League. What it also seems to do is run commerce protection on at least some of that trading expanse. The SLN was not very well portrayed in actually doing commerce protection except perhaps to use FF to keep "others" from irritating and cutting in on the operations of OFS and its "clients".
But Beowulf has daughter colonies and trading partners which we could reasonably be expected to appreciate to have Beowulf's assistance in keeping the pirate scum off both systems and any trade with them. I suspect the majority of the BSDF is (other than LACs, some S&R ships and navigation tenders) to be hyper capable and most of them warships and that many of them -below the wall- will be out keeping an eye on the system's merchant marine and trade routes into and out of the League protection.