Building the BSDF into the Beowulf Space Navy

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Not sure anyone is producing BC(P)s. The BC(L) design seems to be far superior.

As of the discussion of HoS, The Manties stopped their construction of BC(p)s after the 2nd wave (the first wave being 7 ships started prewar), completing 85+ ships, then switching over to BC(L) production exclusively.

The Graysons seemed to have no interest in the BC(l) by May 1921, and were continuing exclusive BC(p) production. Of course the Graysons use BCs differently than the RMN - they see the BC as an adjunct of the wall, not an independent cruiser, and arm their BC(p)S with capital MDMs, and have them fitted with missile tubes to tailor their ECM loadouts. The Grayson fleet has a different ethos also - they are not a cruise/patrol fleet. Their ships are not intended to patrol vast swaths/show the flag. They are defense and assault - period. So, a unit that is designed as a long range, solo patroller that can win virtually fight it discovers in the vast of space is not what the GSN is looking for.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:And! Beowulf can certainly afford to pay for this on their own now that the SL isn't milking them anymore. But, before the SK starts sending ships their way, what about Gryphon and Sphinx? I would raise unholy hell if I were Gryphon or Sphinx if Beowulf was upgraded from a SDF before they were. Heck, strategically, Beowulf can be covered by the RMN faster than Gryphon or Sphinx. No?

Not as the RMN Home Fleet is currently deployed -- hanging around Manticore. From there the fastest way to Beowulf would require accelerating across the hyper limit, making the [edit]7 LH[/edit] hyper trip to the Junction (being very, very, sure to land outside the RZ), then waiting for their hyper generators to recharge so they can pop through to Beowulf, and then having to wait for their hyper generators to recharge again to make the hyper jump closer to Beowulf's hyper limit (again being very careful to avoid the RZ).

In contrast it's never more than about 35 LM between Manticore and Sphinx; (whereas it's 9 LM on a minimum time course between Manticore and the hyper limits; so less than 4x as far as the hyper limit) and there's no waiting for hyper generators to recharge (which could be up to half an hour each time for an SD).

And Gryphon you'd need to reinforce its normal Home Fleet detachment through hyper, but it's only a single hyper trip (rather than the 3 to Beowulf) and you shouldn't have to worry about an RZ at all)


Even back when Home Fleet had to temporarily hang out covering the Junction, while the modern modlaying forts there were being built, they could probably get to Gryphon fastest (again no RZ there to worry about), then in order of response time Sphynx, Manticore, and finally Beowulf. (For Beowulf the wormhole + hyper is just always going to be slower than the single microjump you need for a fastest route between Junction and Manticore's hyper limit -- and you've got to deal with an RZ between the Juntion/terminus and local star is both cases)

Ah, that's what I missed, if Home Fleet is sitting in orbit. What threw me is that Honor was able to pop thru the junction in order to save Manty bacon in the BoM. But she wasn't in orbit (doh!) and still she barely made it.

But I also seem to recall a passage that says if the enemy comes in hard on a least time bearing for Sphinx, the RMN can't intercept them.

cthia wrote:Ah, that's what I missed, if Home Fleet is sitting in orbit. What threw me is that Honor was able to pop thru the junction in order to save Manty bacon in the BoM. But she wasn't in orbit (doh!) and still she barely made it.

But I also seem to recall a passage that says if the enemy comes in hard on a least time bearing for Sphinx, the RMN can't intercept them.

Sphinx is .8 lm (14.4 Mkm) inside the Hyperlimit - technically, It could get bombarded by EDMs from the hyper limit. To defend it, you would need a fleet in Sphinx orbit, not Manticore orbit, which is closer in at 10.5 lm from the HL.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Ah, that's what I missed, if Home Fleet is sitting in orbit. What threw me is that Honor was able to pop thru the junction in order to save Manty bacon in the BoM. But she wasn't in orbit (doh!) and still she barely made it.

But I also seem to recall a passage that says if the enemy comes in hard on a least time bearing for Sphinx, the RMN can't intercept them.

Sphinx is .8 lm (14.4 Mkm) inside the Hyperlimit - technically, It could get bombarded by EDMs from the hyper limit. To defend it, you would need a fleet in Sphinx orbit, not Manticore orbit, which is closer in at 10.5 lm from the HL.

Which is why I would scream bloody murder if I were Sphinx, if the efforts of the RMN upgraded Beowulf before them.

At the very least, I always thought Sphinx should have "the galaxy's largest SDF." Especially when Honor became the MVP of the Galaxy. Many an enemy would like to see Honor's head on a platter. Taking her out would have been ideal and accepted by any navy without hesitation. (Although Theisman hesitated. He didn't want to die.)

But taking Honor's mind and head out of the game might be accepted as a close second, as it may push her over the edge if she lost a lot of loved ones, as it almost did when she thought she had lost Hamish. Sphinx seems like it would be a perfect target to strike at Honor indirectly. Which I fear may happen one day if she attacks and hurts Darius. Tit for tat. Set off her barely contained reactor and make her become a criminal of the Galaxy. As the MA almost accomplished when she attacked Sol. Honor was off the rails.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Sphinx is .8 lm (14.4 Mkm) inside the Hyperlimit - technically, It could get bombarded by EDMs from the hyper limit. To defend it, you would need a fleet in Sphinx orbit, not Manticore orbit, which is closer in at 10.5 lm from the HL.

Which is why I would scream bloody murder if I were Sphinx, if the efforts of the RMN upgraded Beowulf before them.

At the very least, I always thought Sphinx should have "the galaxy's largest SDF." Especially when Honor became the MVP of the Galaxy. Many an enemy would like to see Honor's head on a platter. Taking her out would have been ideal and accepted by any navy without hesitation. (Although Theisman hesitated. He didn't want to die.)

But taking Honor's mind and head out of the game might be accepted as a close second, as it may push her over the edge if she lost a lot of loved ones, as it almost did when she thought she had lost Hamish. Sphinx seems like it would be a perfect target to strike at Honor indirectly. Which I fear may happen one day if she attacks and hurts Darius. Tit for tat. Set off her barely contained reactor and make her become a criminal of the Galaxy. As the MA almost accomplished when she attacked Sol. Honor was off the rails.

That's why Sphinx has orbital forts, missile pods, LAC wings, and a small detatchment of home fleet at all time. Depending on it's position relative the resonance zone and Manticore, various portions of home fleet are stationed there. It's never naked, and it would take multiple squadrons of wallers to threaten.

cthia wrote:Ah, that's what I missed, if Home Fleet is sitting in orbit. What threw me is that Honor was able to pop thru the junction in order to save Manty bacon in the BoM. But she wasn't in orbit (doh!) and still she barely made it.

But I also seem to recall a passage that says if the enemy comes in hard on a least time bearing for Sphinx, the RMN can't intercept them.

Theemile wrote:Sphinx is .8 lm (14.4 Mkm) inside the Hyperlimit - technically, It could get bombarded by EDMs from the hyper limit. To defend it, you would need a fleet in Sphinx orbit, not Manticore orbit, which is closer in at 10.5 lm from the HL.

cthia wrote:Which is why I would scream bloody murder if I were Sphinx, if the efforts of the RMN upgraded Beowulf before them.

At the very least, I always thought Sphinx should have "the galaxy's largest SDF." Especially when Honor became the MVP of the Galaxy. Many an enemy would like to see Honor's head on a platter. Taking her out would have been ideal and accepted by any navy without hesitation. (Although Theisman hesitated. He didn't want to die.)

But taking Honor's mind and head out of the game might be accepted as a close second, as it may push her over the edge if she lost a lot of loved ones, as it almost did when she thought she had lost Hamish. Sphinx seems like it would be a perfect target to strike at Honor indirectly. Which I fear may happen one day if she attacks and hurts Darius. Tit for tat. Set off her barely contained reactor and make her become a criminal of the Galaxy. As the MA almost accomplished when she attacked Sol. Honor was off the rails.

Sphinx is simply not important to the defense of Manticore. Note that Honor ordered the defensive forces around it to not even fire against Haven's Navy in the battle of Manticore; because it was more important that the enemy not fire in the direction of Sphinx, than whatever contribution its shots could make.

Basically you are asking Manticore to set up defenses to protect against an EE violation, when the presence of those forces would make Sphinx a more valuable target and so direct more missiles its way. Just as the Yawata Strike only killed so many in Sphinx, because of the valuable space station that was targeted near it.

I'm sure that Honor would grieve if more relatives were killed on Sphinx; but the most important people to her do not live there now.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Ah, that's what I missed, if Home Fleet is sitting in orbit. What threw me is that Honor was able to pop thru the junction in order to save Manty bacon in the BoM. But she wasn't in orbit (doh!) and still she barely made it.

But I also seem to recall a passage that says if the enemy comes in hard on a least time bearing for Sphinx, the RMN can't intercept them.

Theemile wrote:Sphinx is .8 lm (14.4 Mkm) inside the Hyperlimit - technically, It could get bombarded by EDMs from the hyper limit. To defend it, you would need a fleet in Sphinx orbit, not Manticore orbit, which is closer in at 10.5 lm from the HL.

cthia wrote:Which is why I would scream bloody murder if I were Sphinx, if the efforts of the RMN upgraded Beowulf before them.

At the very least, I always thought Sphinx should have "the galaxy's largest SDF." Especially when Honor became the MVP of the Galaxy. Many an enemy would like to see Honor's head on a platter. Taking her out would have been ideal and accepted by any navy without hesitation. (Although Theisman hesitated. He didn't want to die.)

But taking Honor's mind and head out of the game might be accepted as a close second, as it may push her over the edge if she lost a lot of loved ones, as it almost did when she thought she had lost Hamish. Sphinx seems like it would be a perfect target to strike at Honor indirectly. Which I fear may happen one day if she attacks and hurts Darius. Tit for tat. Set off her barely contained reactor and make her become a criminal of the Galaxy. As the MA almost accomplished when she attacked Sol. Honor was off the rails.

Sphinx is simply not important to the defense of Manticore. Note that Honor ordered the defensive forces around it to not even fire against Haven's Navy in the battle of Manticore; because it was more important that the enemy not fire in the direction of Sphinx, than whatever contribution its shots could make.

Basically you are asking Manticore to set up defenses to protect against an EE violation, when the presence of those forces would make Sphinx a more valuable target and so direct more missiles its way. Just as the Yawata Strike only killed so many in Sphinx, because of the valuable space station that was targeted near it.

I'm sure that Honor would grieve if more relatives were killed on Sphinx; but the most important people to her do not live there now.

That is certainly a compelling argument now. But would Sphinx see it that way? At any rate, how important is Sphinx to the MBS as a whole?

tlb wrote:Sphinx is simply not important to the defense of Manticore. Note that Honor ordered the defensive forces around it to not even fire against Haven's Navy in the battle of Manticore; because it was more important that the enemy not fire in the direction of Sphinx, than whatever contribution its shots could make.

Though that calculus would likely have changed had Sphinx already received the Apollo capable forts and pods that Gryphon had as of the BoM. (Even if Mycroft wasn't yet in place)

With those, the deadliness of its very long range fire would justify launching, and if firing at a couple hundred million km there's fairly low risk that Haven would risk returning fire (too high a chance of an errant missile striking something it shouldn't)

By now I'm sure those upgrades have been carried out across the Manticore-A system.


But also, as of the BoM nobody's fixed defenses, or SDF, were designed to stop the kind of firepower Haven brought to bear. That was the single most powerful naval force the universe had seen to date. Against a more sane force level even the pre-Apollo Sphynx MDM equipped forts likely would have engaged.

tlb wrote:Sphinx is simply not important to the defense of Manticore. Note that Honor ordered the defensive forces around it to not even fire against Haven's Navy in the battle of Manticore; because it was more important that the enemy not fire in the direction of Sphinx, than whatever contribution its shots could make.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though that calculus would likely have changed had Sphinx already received the Apollo capable forts and pods that Gryphon had as of the BoM. (Even if Mycroft wasn't yet in place)

With those, the deadliness of its very long range fire would justify launching, and if firing at a couple hundred million km there's fairly low risk that Haven would risk returning fire (too high a chance of an errant missile striking something it shouldn't)

By now I'm sure those upgrades have been carried out across the Manticore-A system.

The Battle of Manticore would have been completely different if Apollo had been in wide distribution and use at the time.

However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

tlb wrote:However whether there should be a major defensive force set up around Sphinx (which has no military significance except for orbital industry), is still a valid question. The more military you put in space around it, the more valuable as a target it becomes.

I suspect that Sphinx is unlikely to get its own Home Fleet detachment (though IIRC Gryphon does).

Depending on the planetary alignment the Manticore-A component of Home Fleet might be deployed close to Sphinx, when the planets are in conjunction and so any least time course to Manticore could easily be intercepted from Sphinx.

But at other times they'll be closer to opposition and a single force can't properly cover both planets. However Sphinx is so close to the hyper limit that a separate detachment there is at risk of getting destroyed in detail before they can combine with the forces near Manticore.
And if you try to be strong everywhere you're strong nowhere - so you need to sometimes prioritize concentration of force at the expense of reducing the area you're covering.


There's a nonlinear factor in combat, the "N-Squared Law" where, thanks to progressive attrition, doubling your combat power allows you to knock out the enemy in well less than half the time, with well less than half the losses you'd have taken. That's kind of the core of defeating an enemy in detail; you could be weaker than their combined forces, but if you can meet them piecemeal in a bunch of engagements that are lopsided in your favor you can destroy far more than your own combat power. So Manticore would want to avoid splitting the core of Home Fleet in Manticore-A. They'd probably rather risk destruction of Sphinx's orbital industry and temporary loss of its orbitals to ensure that their fleet has the best chance of stopping a powerful attack before it can capture Manticore itself.