Some tech questions

phillies wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Overkill is less of a problem than underkill...

Unless you do not have ammo resupply before the next engagement.

Then that next engagement is underkill. Which is a problem.

As Asimov wrote, "three mathematicians went duck hunting; the first shot one meter high, the second a meter too low, the third exclaimed 'we got it!'"

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:"Overkill? Are any of the enemy still alive? Then it wasn't Overkill - it wasn't even enough kill!"

Overkill is less of a problem than underkill...

Phillies wrote:Unless you do not have ammo resupply before the next engagement.

Or unless you were delaying firing for effect. LOL

Jonathan_S wrote:

rlrapp wrote:Just Had some tech questions I was uncertain about that might lead to some new strategic directions for navies. How much of an acceleration advantage would a unmanned ship without compensators have over a regular one. Depending on what the answers are destroyer or light cruiser sized drone might be very useful, especially in the system defense role as they could be deployed for long periods in standby condition.

The author has said he has no interest in having drone warships in this series; so we're simply not likely to see those no mater what their theoretical acceleration advantages might (or might not) be.

Both of the above posts have been snipped.

But that's the kind of thing that makes you go 'hmm'. The author took a lot of fun out of the equation when he made that decree. And we all can understand why. He wants to keep a tight rein on strategy and tactics and such. But, just what is an unmanned warship? It is a drone with weapons aboard. Like the Silver Bullets or Manticore's own Mistletoe. In fact, the only difference between a warship and a missile is a human body inside. But! The missing link between the two is the Japanese Kaiten, a manned torpedo/submarine.

And, the acceleration advantage is the same as that of missiles over warships. And as far as tonnage, these things have approached half a million tons.

IOW, they already exist.

Another example are the ships at Beowulf in UH. I was reminded of these by tlb in another thread.

cthia wrote:But, just what is an unmanned warship? It is a drone with weapons aboard. Like the Silver Bullets or Manticore's own Mistletoe. In fact, the only difference between a warship and a missile is a human body inside. But! The missing link between the two is the Japanese Kaiten, a manned torpedo/submarine.

Okay, arguably the only (significant) difference between a Long Lance Torpedo and Kaiten is the human inside. But it seems pretty disingenuous to imply that a Kaiten, and say one of their B1-class submarines (or a USN Gaeto class), are even slightly equivalent as warships.

Simply sticking a person inside a lightly modified expendable weapon does not make the resulting system a full warship.

The Kaiten was incapable of performing the vast majority of the missions of a true submarine warship - due to lack of range, speed, sensors, life support, navigation, weapons, communications, depth, etc., etc.

Nor could you argue that simply because a torpedo's guidance system could do a similar job to the Kaiten's human driver that a full warship (be it submarine or surface vessel) could have been automated in any effective way.


Similarly trying to claim that just because the Honorverse has expendable munitions (missiles and armed drones) that are somewhat capable, to whatever greater or lesser degree, of completing automated attacks as a reason why combat effective automation of full warships is practical is a massive overreach. The fact you can do one gives almost no information about your ability to do the other -- warships being vastly more complicated, with many more types of systems, than even the most complicated of the armed drones.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:But, just what is an unmanned warship? It is a drone with weapons aboard. Like the Silver Bullets or Manticore's own Mistletoe. In fact, the only difference between a warship and a missile is a human body inside. But! The missing link between the two is the Japanese Kaiten, a manned torpedo/submarine.

Okay, arguably the only (significant) difference between a Long Lance Torpedo and Kaiten is the human inside. But it seems pretty disingenuous to imply that a Kaiten, and say one of their B1-class submarines (or a USN Gaeto class), are even slightly equivalent as warships.

Simply sticking a person inside a lightly modified expendable weapon does not make the resulting system a full warship.

The Kaiten was incapable of performing the vast majority of the missions of a true submarine warship - due to lack of range, speed, sensors, life support, navigation, weapons, communications, depth, etc., etc.

Nor could you argue that simply because a torpedo's guidance system could do a similar job to the Kaiten's human driver that a full warship (be it submarine or surface vessel) could have been automated in any effective way.


Similarly trying to claim that just because the Honorverse has expendable munitions (missiles and armed drones) that are somewhat capable, to whatever greater or lesser degree, of completing automated attacks as a reason why combat effective automation of full warships is practical is a massive overreach. The fact you can do one gives almost no information about your ability to do the other -- warships being vastly more complicated, with many more types of systems, than even the most complicated of the armed drones.

The Kaiten was incapable of performing the vast majority of the missions of a true submarine warship - due to lack of range, speed, sensors, life support, navigation, weapons, communications, depth, etc., etc.

One could make the same comparison between LACs and SDs. Or destroyers and SDs. Or between other ships below the wall and ships OF the wall.

It is simply the same economics at play for entry level automobiles when trying to keep the cost down.

- Range. Smaller gas tanks.

- Speed. Only a four cylinder engine which depends on gravity downhill.

- Sensors. No halogen lights or infrared animal detectors built into the windshield. No parking assist.

- Life support. No airbags. Inadequate heater. No air conditioning. No roll cage. Cheap brakes. No filtration system. No center-line detection when you've fallen asleep. No auto-dimmers of rearview mirrors or headlights, etc., etc.

- Navigation. No GPS.

- Weapons. Well, the Kaiten was actually a "contact" nuke.

- Communications. No Siri talking back telling you to turn right onto a bridge that is closed or unfinished. IOW, no computer onboard trying to kill you? No room for a backseat driver or a front seat passenger to chat it up with? No built-in cellphone like my BMW of long ago. The Kaiten actually communicated by "touch."

- Depth? It was a skimmer.

Yep, just sounds like a cheaper entry level version for cash strapped buyers offering very few "options."

Was a Yugo actually an automobile?